Truth Soup

Hey moron, how is pre-emptive war on Iraq in DEFENSE of the Constitution of the United States?

I gladly pay the $55 a year to have access to Glenn's web site. He's awesome! Funny, insightful, patriotic. The program is very professionally produced and a pleasure to listen to each day.

I want to express my appretiation for Joel's concern for our salvation. I'm sure that his zeal comes from his love for the savior and creator of the universe. I need to go on record about his comments on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are christians. I don't think anyone has the right to pass judgement on another who proffesses Jesus Christ as Lord , God, and Savior. He is the devine Son of our Father in Heaven. Joel, have you OBJECTIVELY read the Book of Mormon for yourself(cover to cover). Have you asked God if the Book of Mormon is His word, or if we are Christian? Have you noticed the comprehensive footnote system in our sciptures that link together the Book of Mormon and the Bible (we use the King James version)? Or have you recieved your information from people who spend their lives tareing down a church that proclames salvation through the atoneing blood of our God, Jesus Christ. I wonder if your information comes from "ex- Mormons" such as Ed Decker. He as well as many others who fight so hard against this using distortions and 1/2 truthes are full of Hate and contempt. Such contention does not invite the Spirit of God, on the contrary it chases the Spirit away. If One tusts God then why would he not ask Him? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is The Lord Jesus Crist's Church. The Book of Mormon is every bit the word of God as the Holy Bible is. I have read both multiple times. studied prayed and feasted on them. I was raised Jewish and from the Book of Mormon first and then the Bible I now know that Jesus truely is the Christ, the Holy One Of Israel. He has made an infinite atonement for my sins and for as many as will come unto Him. I know that the Jewish people need not look anymore for the Messiah to come. For He has come! and will soon return to honor His covenant with His people. I love Him and I love His word with all my heart.

I was enjoying your comments until you blasted religion...shows you true depth of thought...which is none

I've been listening to Glenn since they started playing his show in my area (shortly after 9-11). He's one of the most entertaining men I've ever heard.

I was crushed though, when he said that he was a Mormon. The difference between Christians and Mormons is in the details. Mormons believe in "salvation," but their definition differs greatly (as do many things) with the christian definition of it.

To the schmuck that made the first comment, please tell me where in the entire article does it say that we started the war in defense.

Your religion bashing is rather inept. Beck started my conversion to Mormonism, where I now feel comfortable and at peace, compared to five different Protestant denominations that left me in counseling.

Truthmeister Replies: I am sorry you did not find Christ in the so-called churches you attended. Bearing the name "Protestant" does not necessarily mean you will find truth there. The fact is, the peace you are now experiencing is likely related to your feelings rather than the veracity of Mormon doctrine. Unfortunately, you have been duped into joining one of the world's largest cults, where there is no salvation.

After listening to Glenn Beck off and on for the past year or so, I've come to realize he's just one of those guys we've all known at some point in our lives. You know, the guy who's basically a loser in life (alcoholic, divorced, multiple short term jobs, etc., etc.), but well read enough to sound intelligent and appear emotionally stable as he ardently professes his latest awakenings to the "real" truth and meanings in life.

The only difference between Beck and the 40 year-old hardware store department manager is Beck somehow got a big enough audience of fools to listen and follow to make him, at least for now, successful. The real test will be if he has any staying power, and how long it will take his cadre of fools to finally wake up and realize Beck doesn't have any better answers to the problems of the world than they do.

And to top it all off, his show gets a little boring, as he goes on and on and on and on about the same topics. At first he was interesting, but after a couple months or so, I'd pretty much heard everything he had to say.

A quote from The Book of Mormon: "I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent."

And another for good measure: "And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

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TruthMeister's Comments: The Book of Mormon is a sham, a fraud perpetrated by a mixed up, power hungry false Christ. I recommend doing a deep study of this cult as the state of your soul is at stake

Mormons aren't the devil. Glenn Beck isn't the devil. Satan is the devil. I admit, I was surprised to hear that Glenn Beck affiliates with the Mormon church as well. He's not like the thousands of Mormons I went to school with in Utah growing up. Also, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to draw the parallels between Mormonism and masonry to figure out what Joseph Smith really based this religion on. But, on the other hand, get off the backs of Mormons. So they don't believe the way you - as a Protestant - do. It's almost EXACTLY like Catholicism and nobody's saying Catholics are members of one really big cult. Am I Mormon? No. Do I ever intend to be? Nope. But take some time and look into the religion for yourself. Yes, you may find it's full of holes and perversions of the scripture quoted from the one and only word of God - The Bible - but nowhere in there will you find that Mormons are cultish, ax-wielding Charlie Manson impersonators.

Steve, I appreciate your comments. I'm not sure why TruthMeister would think that if I sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died to atone for my sins and that I cannot be saved except through his grace I'm going to hell because I also happen to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. And what if I also believe that "faith without works is dead" as is written in the Book of James? If my belief in or interpretation of that scripture is mistaken but I still accept Jesus Christ as my savior, why can't I be saved like all Protestants who accept Jesus? I don't think that all protestants believe exactly the same thing about the nature of God, Jesus Christ, grace, salvation, an so on. So why are Mormons the only ones going to hell?

Most protestants are going to hell anyway. Glenn Beck seems to be a good person, despite his checkered past. The only truly Christian religions are Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox religions. The other "Christian" faiths took it upon themselves to reinterpret the Bible for their own prerogatives (except maybe the Lutherans). However, if you can live a Biblical life you should not be criticized whatever your religious affiliation may be.

Ron, spoken like a good indoctrinated Catholic! Bravo!

Visit http://www.pro-gospel.org for a dose a truth about the Catholic church.

Mormons believe in ANOTHER Jesus. Clearly not the one proclaimed in the Gospels.

I refer you to some very helpful resources written by Mormons that have escaped the clutches of this deceptive cult.

http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html

GB is a great talk show host. Avid fans have noticed a shift in the past few months to more of a religious tone and more Mormon doctrine slipping into his monologues. It remains to be seen where this will go.. will Mormonism take Glenn Beck, or will Glenn Beck take Mormonism? All I can say is.. the sick freaks hope it doesn't all just crash and burn.

Great points, Ken. I really am bumfuzzled over how Glenn could be so blinded by Mormonism. Its so obvious to outsiders, but insiders just will not look at the facts objectively. In fact, like Jehovah's Witnesses, some are taught not to look at sources from outside the church. A sure sign that the organization is attempting to control the flow of information.

But what I find so amazing is the GB exhibits so much common sense in all other areas of his life. I don't think he can see the forest for the trees in his spiritual life. We can continue to pray that he will come out from apostosy and into the true saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I'm been a fan of Glenn's for a couple of years and listen while I drive on XM everyday.

There was a South Park episode where a Mormon family moved into the neighborhood. After listening to the history of the church, the one kid (sorry I don't watch it that much) that wanted to be the new kids friend, basically thought they were freaks and wanted nothing to do with him anymore.

I loved the final scene that went something like - the new kid admitted that his religion was based on some strange stuff, but it made him and his family feel good about themselves and they were all happy. And what's wrong with that? And if he didn't want to be his friend, then that was his problem.

What's wrong with the idea that the family and marriage is eternal? Your body and mind should be treated with respect and you help others less fortunate?

Glenn explained his "Spiritual Journey" in his book and also on an insider show. He just didn't pick the Mormon's without some thought. And even afterward, has always questioned the church. But if it's right for him and his family, what's it to you?

I love these people that think their religion is the right one and everyone else is nuts! What difference does it make what religion one goes to, it's how one live's their religion and their life that matters.

Drop the religion aspect all it does is show how shallow you are.

Wayne

Sorry Wayne.. doesn't fly.

Discussing Mormonism and any religion is not "shallow". In fact, having the courage to face religion and politics is anything BUT shallow. We MUST be able to have discourse on the nature of Truth, else we really have nothing but smalltalk.

And it is of no eternal consequence to me if Beck is a Mormon. But the fact that he gave it "thought" and still ended up in the Mormon church is incredibly confusing. Mormonism is NOT a religion based on thought. It is based mostly on feeling and self-supporting statements. Critical thought leads more people out of the Mormon church than vice-versa. This is what puzzles me so. The Mormon cult is a house of cards that my 11-year old can see through.

Joel, You are the reason a great many people hate "Christians". And no thank you to your ilk for hijacking a beautiful religion such as Christianity and turning it into a mass-marketing joke. Go drown an anchor, you fundamentalist waste of skin.

I heard that Glenn Beck was a Mormon and decided to search for the answer. This is the only place I found it. I am a bit suprised to hear this. I share his political views - and turns out his religious views, too. It is just strange to me because I have felt at times that his show was a bit loud, rude, and disrespectful. I would think that a Mormon would know better, but it takes all kinds I guess.

Mormons, just like any other religious people, are made up of lots of different individuals who share some beliefs and who differ on others. I am glad that all of you are concerned about religion. I can't speak for all Mormons, but I love my Savior Jesus Christ. I love the scriptures. I love the Bible, the Old and New Testaments, and I love the Book of Mormon. They all teach me of Christ and his place in my life.

I love religion. My religion is so special to me that I have great respect for all religious people and all wholesome religious beliefs that lead people to be good and love and serve their neighbors. These are Christian principles no matter who is living them. These principles can be found in all major religions. Christ said that if we are His, we are one. We need to look for the beliefs we have in common and this is where we as people will be able to establish our peaceful associations and governments. Then we need to allow each other to vary on other points of the law as our understandings and conscious dictate.

We can all start with ourselves by not tearing down another's religious beliefs, but find something there you can respect. This will strengthen the gratitude you have for your own beliefs and as your relationships with people improve, so will your relationship with God.

I am a Christian - I believe in the peaceful, loving ways of Christ. He, God himself, was accepting and loving while He was on the earth. That is what He has asked us to be - follow him by respecting the good beliefs and doctrines of others. Christ loved sinners. If we are Christian, we can too - even when that sinner is ourself.

P.S. If you REALLy want to know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you can go to www.mormon.org or to www.lds.org - these web sites are both official websites of the church. The first is mainly a site for people wishing to learn more while the latter is a site with everything a practicing Mormon might need. Church publications are all there, even the lessons we have on Sunday morning. It is all there.

Yes, we may seem a little cultish at times with our knee length shorts, green jell-o salads, CTR rings (Choose the Right),temples, exotic scriptures (Book Of Mormon), and RULDS2 bumper stickers but we, for the most part, are good, friendly ( I hope), trying to follow Jesus people. At times we do get a little pushy trying to force our religion on people - but it is all in an effort to share what is so precious to us. We just don't always present it well.

Perhaps we should share our cake on china with silver forks and linen knapkins instead of throwing a fistful in someone's face. If we err, it is in our presentation. We love Jesus Christ. And somehow he tolerates us, and even loves us too.

Hope this helps anybody who wants to know more. You can visit the websites.

I decided to leave Mr. Hendrie's "comments" on my blog even though he was incredibly rude to me. I think they serve as a great example of the hate that exists in the heart of some people. Certainly, he can use all the prayer he can get. Apparantly, he is a radio talk show host in Los Angeles. I'm not sure if he hates Glenn Beck as much as he hates me, but perhaps there is some envy there.

Anyway, thank you Mr. Hendrie for your comments. I don't presume to know you, or to label you so you fit comfortably in my little box, but what I have seen so far is not appealing.

While I appreciate Angela's comments and her choice to be a Mormon, I must stand up and speak out against the cult as Jesus Himself told us there would be imposters in the last days.

When He ascended into heaven, the angel asked the apostles what they were looking at. He said that Jesus would return the very way He left... in the clouds. That automatically rules out Jesus appearing in the Americas as Joseph Smith proclaimed. (and which there is absolutely NO verifiable archeological evidence of His appearance in the Americas).

This site has done a superb job of deconstructing the Mormom cult, including blatant contradictions in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, verifiable changes in the Book of Mormon and inside scoop of what really goes on in the mormon church.

I have no doubt that Mormons are sincere people, devoted to seeking and worshipping God. However, they are sincerely wrong and have not accepted God's way to salvation.

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm

Peace,

Joel

Joel,

By your comments you must be some type of big anti-mormon quack. Let it go. People like you spend their miserable lives attacking, cricticizing, and bad mouthing the church, but the only person that you're hurting are your selves. You're not stoping one of the fastest growing churches world wide from seperating the wheat from the tares.

Take a look at your sources of information, they're ANTI-MORMON! Do you really think they're going to give you a good representation of what the church stands for?

IF you wanted to learn more about Jesus Christ, who would you ask to tell you about it, Judas or Peter? Exactly, and why would you not want to ask Judas? For the same reason people shouldn't believe anything you say. It's slanted, biased, hateful, and false.

Read "Are Mormons Christians?" by Stephen E. Robinson if you have any questions about Mormons being Christians in every sense of the word.

Nonsense. Of course the sources are ANTI-MORMOM, as you say. These are from former Mormons who have been exposed to the truth of Scripture and have come to see the huge chasm that separates the cult from the real thing. Everyone and everything has a slant. Jesus had one. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." If that isn't slanted, I don't know what is.

Mormons are not Christian in any sense of the word. Their man-made organization is based on a fictional story created by a power-hungry madman. Their doctrines stand in stark contrast to the doctrines of Scripture.

As for me being a miserable quack, as you said, you don't know me well enough to judge me. I was merely commenting on Beck's ignorance where his church affiliation is concerned. I am not hurt by his choices or by the fact that the Mormon church is thriving. The Scripture is clear that many false Christs would arise and that the lemmings would fall for it. My eternity is sealed, but I have compassion on those who have chosen the broad path to destruction.

The Lord once asked Job, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"
(Job 37:2) Know we know the answer, it's Joel!

This silly cult business has really got to stop. You seem to be an educated person, but please, stop embarrassing yourself. By what definition is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints a cult?

Your logic seems to be that there are objective criteria for distinguishing "cults" from "religions," and since Mormonism is a "cult" and Christianity is a "religion," Mormons can't be Christians. Is that it? What is your reasoning?

There's no need to judge Joel, you've already incriminated yourself of being a quack. The proof is in your entries. Jesus not only warned about false Christs, but also about over zealous extremists: Mathew 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kindgom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in the name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

LOL! Well, there is a book of Joel in the Bible. Does that make me a minor prophet? (Note the tongue in cheek, please...)

I am not embarrassed for the sake of Christ, nor of the truth of His gospel!

But you ask an excellent question, Dave! I hope you ask it sincerely. The Bible tells us to test EVERYTHING to see if it lines up with the teachings of Scripture. So exactly what makes a "Christian" cult?

First of all, realize that there IS objective criteria. If you don't have a foundation for your faith that you can base your beliefs on, your faith is useless and utterly meaningless. However, if you have a belief system, you are able to compare and contrast what others say about God. Among Bible-believing Christians, it is common knowledge that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science are cults.

If you are truly interested in finding out why many believe this to be true, this synopsis found on the Christian Apologetics and Research Page is a great starting point. They have done an excellent job of summarizing where belief systems go awry by incorrectly interpreting the Word of God.

http://www.carm.org/cults/cults.htm

Joel, not the fount of wisdom, but I know Him!

"The Bible tells us to test EVERYTHING to see if it lines up with the teachings of Scripture"

Joel,

I'm glad that you think this way, because it is important to study the scriptures so that we may know the truth, and truth is what it's all about. "And the truth shall make you free" John 8:32.

Jesus Christ came to the earth to teach truth, whether we accept it or not is our choice, but the truths and principles of the gospel still remain. We know that the truth is in Jesus Christ, for he is "the way, the truth and the light." The truth is not only in Jesus Christ, but it is also in his church, The Church of Jesus Christ. He came here to fulfill a mission, to do the will of his Father, to redeem all mankind from both temporal and spiritual death. He came here to save us. He formed a church, and the New Testament contains the blueprints of that church. It is our guide and resource to the original Church of Jesus Christ, the True Church of Jesus Christ, the Church that we should all be looking for if we are honest seekers of TRUTH. That is why it is so important that we seek out truth, that we follow truth, and defend truth against those who (sometimes unknowingly) seek to destroy it. More on that later on, but first this silly cult business:

This cockamamie link that you gave to defend your position that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a cult, that Mormons aren't Christians, let's look at these lame arguments.

First, your definition. The "dictionary?" says that a cult is-

1. A system of religious worship or ritual
2. Devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for a person, principle, etc.
3. A group of followers

So using these definitions that you gave, what is the destinction between a cult and a religion? By your standards, the terms are quite synonymous. In fact, the greatest cult leader of all time would in fact be Jesus Christ because he had a devoted group of followers who were quite extravagent in their system of religious worship. Wouldn't you say? (Remember, we're going after Truth here, not your negative evaluation of Mormonism.)

So, you make up your own definition, "a group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures......if it does, it distorts the true biblical doctrines that effect salvation sufficiently so as to void salvation." You go on to say that "some cult groups even add to the bible, i.e. Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, ect."

Let's talk about these added definitions that you come up with for a second.....Any objective definition of a cult that you use by these standards that can be applied to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can also be applied to the Christian church of the New Testament and to most of today's mainline denominations when they were in their infancy.

Mormons accept the Bible as the word of God as far as it is translated correctly, we also accept the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. That makes us a cult?

We're a cult because we possess some additional scripture which adds additional insight into Gods word as proclaimed by the bible? Do you really believe that? Did John not say "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
Do you think that Jesus only loved the people in Jerusalem? Are we not all God's children? You don't think God loved the people who lived here in America as well?

The early Christian Church claimed that the new covenant of the gospel and the New Testament that records it superseded the old covenant of the law of Moses and the Old Testament that records it (Galatians 3:24-29; Hebrews 8:7-13;10:8-9). To the scriptures accepted during Jesus' lifetime as the word of God the Christians ADDED at least four Gospels, a book of Acts, 21 Epistles, and an Apocalypse.

The Jews were just as incensed at these spurious (from their point of view) additions to God's word in the period of the early Church as anti-Mormon critics like yourself are at the Book of Mormon today.

Early Christians added books to the accepted cannon of scriptures, and insisted that the New Testament fulfilled and superseded the Old. So using your definition, early Christianity was a "cult."

"Cult" is a subjective word meaning, to the particular person using it, "a religion I don't like." When someone refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a "cult," that simply tells us that they don't like the Church. Christianity itself was once a new religion with dynamic leadership, strong in-group bonding, high moral expectations, and additional scriptures, all of which greatly offended the mainline religions of the day. They attempted to convert the world to a trugh no one else had. By the most objective definitions that you have proposed so far for the term cult, early Christianity was one. So any general definition of a cult that would fit the Latter Day Saints will also fit New Testament Christianity- but that's not bad company to be in.

Next, a classic, you go on to say that "cults say that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient, but our works must be "mixed with' or 'added to' his in order to prove that we are saved and worthy of salvation." Let's be honest about this one, this is what Mormons say, right?

Well, Joel, you are wrong. Mormons do not believe in salvation by works. We don't. That human beings can save themselves by their own efforts is contrary to the teachings of the Book of Mormon. When you enter into a covenat agreement with God, the promise is that if I will do A, God will grant B-the very fact that such a covenant has been offered to me and that I am able to receive such overwhelming blessings in return for such palrty efforts is in itself an act of grace, an expression of the pure love of God, a gift. Salvation itself is the result of such a covenant of grace- "the new testament (or covenant)in my blood" Luke 22:20.The very existence of this covenant is a gift, a grace offered by Jesus Christ. Yet like all covenants, there are terms binding upon both parties. Our best efforts to live the laws of God are required, but not because they earn the promised rewards- our efforts are infinitely disproportionate to the actual costs. Rather, our best efforts are a token of our good faith and of our acceptance of the offered covenant. Thus we participate in our own salvation as we attempt to keep the commandments of God, but we can never earn it ourselves or bring it to pass on our own merits, no matter how well we may think we are doing.

Salvation can never come as the result of an individual's own efforts, but only through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon teaches this explicitly in 2 Nephi 2:3, 5-8

Latter-Day Saints endorse the validity of salvation through grace by faith (D&C 20:30) but insist that "faith" be not totally divorced from its Semitic origin meaning "faithful" (Hebrew 'aman) and become watered down to mean mere mental assent (James 2:14-26).

To have "faith" in Christ must in some degree imply subsequent "faithfulness" to Christ as Lord. The LDS concept of being "in Christ" (Paul's term) or being "perfect in Christ" (Moroni's term) is one of covenant relationship. There are no preconditions for entering into the covenant of faith in Christ to be justified by his grace through faith, there are covenant obligations incurred by so entering. Those who have been justified by faith are obliged to serve Christ and to make him their Lord by imitating him in their behavior and keeping his commandments (John 14:15, 21; 15:8, 10; Romans 6:16; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.)

Christians who come to Christ must assume his yoke, and "endure to the end" (Mathew 24:13; Mark 13:13). Mere belief doesn't give you salvation. The devils knew that Jesus was the Christ, they didn't just believe, they knew it, but they weren't saved. Latter-day Saints reject the Calvinist doctrine of eternal security, or once-saved-always-saved, it follows that we also accept the possibility that one may "fall from grace" (Galatians 5:4; 2 Peter 3:17) or fail to "endure to the end." This may come about if we rebel against God and refuse to serve him as promised, thus denying both our vassalage and Christ's lordship. After being born again Christians may either "endure" in their commitment to Christ and their desire for him or "fall from grace" through willful rebellion, by withholding their promised hearts (Galatians 5:4; D&C 20:32).

Lastly, you say that Jesus warned that in the last days false prophets would come. Well, if there are false prophets, doesn't there have to be a true prophet? Where is the true prophet on the earth today Joel? Joel was a prophet, he received revelation from God to guide his people in his day, where is our prophet, in our day? Why did God reveal to Noah how to build the ark, and not Adam? Could it be that it wasn't Adam's problem? Noah received revelations that were relevant for his time, for his day, not for Adam. There is a living prophet on the earth today, and he receives modern day revelation directly from Jesus Christ to guide his Church, the Church of Jesus Christ.

If the bible tells us to test everything, where's a living prophet? Where are the 12 apostles? Judas died, and they called another to fill his vacancy. After Christ's ascention into heaven, Peter received the revelation to take the gospel to the gentiles. Why? Because he was the person that Jesus chose to be the prophet, the individual to receive revelation from Christ to guide his church, the Church of Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in a modern day prophet, you don't believe in the scriptures.

The scriptures never say that revelation will cease, that that God will stop communicating with his children. In fact they say the opposite. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stands alone as the only true and living church upon the face of the earth today.

Pretty bold statement? It's not me who is making it, it is Jesus Christ. He is at the head of this church, not Mormon, or Joseph Smith, but Jesus Christ. It bears his name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

If you're up to it Joel, let me throw a little food for thought your way, and get your explanation on things.......maybe it'll trigger a sincere study of the principles of Truth that Joseph Smith restored to Christianity, and add some additional light to your Christian life.

Thanks for your well-reasoned and sincere post, Dave. But you have given me no new food for thought. There is WAY too much stuff in your post to refute. And I've discussed these points with Mormon missionaries at my door before, pointing out the doctrinal differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism. So rather than paint a broad brush and debate what is a cult, or how I believe your interpretation of Scripture is incorrect, perhaps a more focused discussion on the key doctrines would be more productive.

Here are some of the troubling issues with Mormon doctrine:

- Mormonism denies the scriptural doctrine of the Trinity and the true deity of Christ
- Mormonism teaches there is more than one God (in fact, the teaching is that there are MANY)
- Mormonism teaches that God the Father is literally an exalted man with a physical body of flesh and bones
- Mormonism teaches that human beings can become gods themselves. ("As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become")
- Mormonism teaches that Jesus was born into this worth the physical and sexual union between God the Father and Mary
- Mormonism teaches that eternal life is attained by a person's works and NOT by grace alone.

This doesn't even get into the fact that there is no evidence from non-Mormon archaeologists proving the existance of these beings that lived in the Americas at the supposed time. It doesn't touch on the fact that Mormons believe Jesus came from the planet Kolob. And the list goes on.

If you wish to pick one specific area of doctrine from those I have listed, we can test it and see if it holds water!

Joel,

I'd be happy to discuss these points with you, and will request you you respond in kind to some questions that I have as well. My point isn't to convince or convert, but to educate so you can stop this libeling of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I doubt if there's anyone else who reads these posts besides us, but the things that you have posted previously are false, and the truth deserves to be told. I have alredy proven that your definition of a cult is flawed, in that by the this same standard the original New Testament Church would have been labeled a cult. When you say that Mormons are a cult, you are only saying that you dislike or disagree with what the Church teaches.

Now, remember Joseph Smith's first vision, he went to the grove of trees early in 1820 to ask God the Father which of all the churches was true. He assumed that one of them had to be true, and believed that Heavenly Father would tell him which one was. He was only 14. How old was Samuel, David, or Jeremiah?

God the Father and Jesus Christ did appear to Joseph Smith, and did answer his prayer. The entire Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints either stands or falls on this Vision. Either Joseph really did see God and Jesus, or he didn't. It is either TRUE or FALSE. If Joseph lied about the First Vision, then he lied about the Book of Mormon, receiving the visitation of Angels, restoration of the priesthood, ect. There is no middle ground in this story. It is either the greatest thing that has happened since the Meridian of time, or it is the greatest lie to have ever been concocted by anyone. Modern Day Propet, or New England Fantasy Fiction Farmboy.

Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that the churches of the day "draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

When the Angel Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith he told him that Joseph's name "would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people." This has certaintly happened, wouldn't you say? If it's such a lie, why the big fuss? Who cares? Why worry about?

So point #1: Mormonism denies the scriptural doctrine of the Trinity and the true deity of Christ.

I definitely have to disagree with you on this one Joel, and counter by saying that the Mormons are the only ones who have a clear understanding of the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Christ. Why? Because Joseph Smith was a First Hand personal witness of both God the Father and Jesus Christ. He saw them, both of them. Two individuals. Distinct. Seperate. In that single revelation, Joseph Smith learned more about the true nature of God than had been learned by all of Chrisitanity for centuries. Thus, the things that Joseph Smith did are often referred to as the RESTORATION, because he restored essential gospel truths that had been lost through the centuries. He restored to mankind the true nature of God the Father, of his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. He witnessed it personally.

So what is the true biblical doctrine of the trinity? Doesn't that depend what religion you are? The Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all affirm their belief in a triune God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit-as the central tenet of the Christian Faith. Triune: "Being three in one. Used especially of the Christian Trinity." Is that what you believe Joel? Are God and Jesus the same person? Is that what the bible teaches?

Mormon's belief is simple, It's the first Article of Faith, "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

An excellent scriptural reference is the baptism of Jesus Christ as found in Mark 1:9-11.

"And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And Straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the spirit like a dove descending upon him; And there came a voice from heaven saying, "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

I could share a ton of other passages, but this one is pretty clear. Jesus Christ, the Son, being baptized in the Water. God in Father speaking, "Thou (Jesus) art my beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased." And finally the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, descending "like a dove." The sign of the Dove, a witness of that administration. A witness of the Holy Ghost, a sign of the Holy Ghost, signifying the truthfulness of the deed. The dove is an emblem of truth an innocence.

Three distinct, seperate witnesses of the Godhead. God, the Father, Speaking. Jesus Christ, the Son, in the water, and The Holy Spirit, as witnessed descending.

There's the trinity. Seperate parts, one purpose: Our salvation. What's unbiblical about that?

Mormons teach that Jesus christ is the Son of God. Luke 1:35 "the Son of God."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten son."

John 3:17 "For God sent his Son..."

John 17:1 "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"

Understanding the true nature of God is very important, in fact it is so important that Jesus Christ taught in the great intercessory prayer;" This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

The most important thing that Joseph Smith did was to restore the True Nature of God the Father, because that is what this life is all about- getting to know our Heavenly Father personally, through Jesus Christ.

Are your scriptures different than mine? Do you not believe that God was the Father and that Jesus was the Son? Do you not believe that they are two seperate individuals? What did Stephen see when he was stoned?

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus Standing on the right hand of God, and said, "Behold I see the heavens opened, and ths Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Jesus was standing on the right hand of God. God had a hand. Jesus was standing on the right of it. Two distinct, separate people.

Now, a quick question for you Joel-Do you believe in Prophets? If God called Prophets anciently, in both the Old and New Testaments, is there a prophet on the earth today? Why or why not? Does the bible support your views?

Too many rabbit trails for a focused conversation, Dave. I do have a reasonable reply to your assertions, comments and questions, but I've learned that discussion online must be focused in order to be fruitful.

I do love healthy discussion, but I have been down this road with Mormons before. I will address a couple things, but I will address them only to tell you where I stand, so we can move on to the central issues.

I reject the notion that you have disproved my definition of "christian cult". Those who would have called the followers of Jesus "cultic" were not aware that He came as a fulfillment of the Jewish law and prophecies, not to abolish them. Their perception may have been that the first Christians were cultish, but they would have based those conclusions on incorrect information.

A Christian cult, however, is really a mathmatical exercise. It ADDS to the Bible, SUBTRACTS from the deity of Christ and MULTIPLIES the requirements for salvation. (cute, huh?)

In your question, "why the fuss?", its because any Gospel apart from the one preached in the Holy Bible is anathema, and leads people away from true salvation that is found in Christ. I could ask the same question of any Mormon. Why the fuss? Why not just accept all ways to God? (which I also reject)

Regarding the Trinity, the Bible teaches that God is one, demonstrated in three persons, all co-equal in the Godhead. We find the "plural unity" of God in the very beginning of Scripture, where we read "Let US make man in our own image". The Trinity is a fascinating subject, but suffice to say I have no problem reconciling God's reference to Jesus as His Son with Jesus' deity and portion in the Godhead. Moving right along...

There's more, but what you said about Joseph Smith is key. All of Mormonism stands or falls on the veracity of his visions, and indeed, his claims as a "prophet". I think we can agree that according to the Bible, a prophet is not a prophet if he ever speaks something that does not come true.

Jesus warned in Matthew 7:15 that false prophets would come and deceive even the elect. Here is the Biblical test for a prophet...

"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

- Deuteronomy 18:21-22

Clear enough, right?

The following prophecies are all taken from Mormon literature, referenced book and chapter.

Prophecy #1
"President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh � even fifty six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).

- This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.

So what are we to do with this prophet who speaks false prophecy?

Here's another...

Prophecy #2
"Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world." (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)

- This prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring.

I see no example of a Word from the Lord not coming to pass exactly as the Prophets spoke in the Old Testament. Can you point to one?

Here's another...

Prophecy #3
"I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished" (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).

- Joseph Smith made this prophecy in May 6, 1843. However, the United States Government did not redress any of the wrongs committed against the Mormons in Missouri, and now over 150 years later, the U.S. Government still stands.

And another...

Prophecy #4
"While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them � not even a grease spot." (Millennial Star, Vol. 22, p. 455. See also History of the Church (HC), vol. 6, p. 116, though when this prediction was incorporated into the official history, Mormon Church leaders decided to leave out the "grease spot" part.)

- The petition was not heard nor was protection granted (Deseret News, Vol. 1, p. 59). Yet, Congress was never broken up and continues to function to this day.

And another...

Prophecy #5
This prophecy is recorded in Doctrine & Covenants Section 111. The introduction to this prophecy, found at the beginning of Section 111 states:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusetts, August 6, 1836. HC 2:465-466. At this time the leaders of the [LDS] Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry.

1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.

2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

3. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.

4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

5. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them."

- No treasure was ever discovered, nor did Salem ever fell into the hands of the Mormons.

And another...
Prophecy #6

"And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled "(History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316).

- Such a widespread destruction of the wicked of that generation never occurred.

And at the risk of overkill, one more. Seven seems to be the number of God, so to speak, so I'll end there.

Prophecy #7
This prophecy comes directly from Doctrine & Covenants Section 84, the introduction of which states:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1:286-295.

1. A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."

- The Mormons were forced to flee Missouri due to persecution and a temple was never built on the "temple lot" in the lifetime of Joseph Smith or within the generation of his contemporaries.

Without even dealing with the contradictions and odd circumstances surrounding Smith's life and his supposed "first vision", it is apparant to me that these "prophecies" qualify him as a false prophet.

Incidentally, I think it fair to give you a bit of background about myself. I am of Jewish lineage and was not raised in a religious atmosphere. There was an unspoken hostility to Jesus Christ in my extended family, probably because many Jews were led to believe that the Christians were responsible for the slaughter of Jews over the years.

After a lengthy spiritual search, which took me through New Age, Scientology and other faiths, God got my attention in the fall of 1988, and I subsequently became a Christian. After exploring many "religions", I came to find that Biblical Christianity was the only faith that I could reconcile both logically and in my heart. Risking alienation by my Jewish family and friends, I took the only route I could. I would rather stand for God's truth and be rejected by men than vice versa.

Since that time, I have grown in my love for the Lord and am certain that my salvation is eternally secure. Knowing Christ and experiencing the forgiveness of all my sins has freed me up to serve God out of love and not requirement. He has been very good to me and my family. :-)

I am passionate about truth, and one of my spiritual gifts is indeed "prophecy". However, this is not defined as "one who predicts the future". Rather, it is a gift given to some in the Body of Christ that prompts them to speak God's truth forth.. thus, to prophecy. I would not presume to speak for God, except what He has already made known in His inerrant and unchangable Word, the Bible.

It's late... I must rest. Peace...

Joel,

In your response you said:

"Those who would have called the followers of Jesus "cultic" were not aware that He came as a fulfillment of the Jewish law and prophecies, not to abolish them. Their perception may have been that the first Christians were cultish, but they would have based those conclusions on incorrect information."

Hallelujah! You are obviously not aware that Joseph Smith fulfills biblical prophecy! The restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ, fulfills biblical prophecy! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, FULFILLS biblical prophecy. There is no other organization, religion, person, book, bible, whatever- that teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ in its entirety- except for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This isn't to say that other churches, religions, creeds, pastors, preachers, etc. are bad, but they simply don't have all the pieces of the TRUE chruch of Jesus Christ. Paul taught, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism." Ephesians 4:5.

There is only one God, only one Jesus, and only one true church, and this is it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is a RESTORATION of the original Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is at the head of his church, it bears his name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (to distinguish it from the church he formed in the Meridian of times.)

Joseph Smith was the prophet that Jesus Christ called to restore his church. FACT. Think what you may, but it is true. It matches biblical scriptures, and prophecy. Your attacks on Joseph Smith are an attack on Jesus Christ, and I am honored to testify to you of the divinity of his life, his teachings, and the church that he restored. I have studied his life, I have read his revelations, I have received a personal witness from Heavenly Father through the Holy Spirit, that Joseph Smith was, and is, a Prophet of God.

A witness of the spirit is more powerful than sight or sound, because once Heavenly Father has witnessed to your heart, there is no denying it. I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, just like I know that Jesus was the Christ, and that God lives.

Now, you say that Joseph Smith made some prophecies that didn't come true. That one unfulfilled prophecy makes him a false prophet.
You even went on to say "I see no example of a Word from the Lord not coming to pass exactly as the Prophets spoke in the Old Testament. Can you point to one?"

Yes Joel, I can. I'm glad you asked. Your standard for judging Joseph Smith's prophecies is just as damaging to a number of Bible prophecies, if not more so.

I will not be discussing any of the Prophet Joseph Smith's alleged "false prophecies," for two reasons: (1) He never uttered any false prophecies; and (2) before I will even enter into such a discussion, I first insist on examining some important rules about prophecy itself, and on asking anti-Mormons to justify their attacks on Joseph Smith in light of those prophecies in the Bible that plainly and clearly did not come to pass.

In discussing difficult Bible prophecies, it is not my intention to attack the Bible, nor to suggest that any of the biblical prophets were false prophets. Rather, it is to illustrate the fact that anyone who accepts the anti-Mormon standard for concluding that Joseph Smith uttered false prophecies must also conclude that several Bible prophets did the same thing.
It has been my experience that anti-LDS critics are willing to make every possible allowance and exception for difficult Bible prophecies, but none for those of Joseph Smith.

The Anti-Mormon Standard

Typically, anti-Mormons point to Deuteronomy 18:21-22 as their measuring rod for branding as "false" a number of Joseph Smith's prophecies. Here is how these verses read in the Revised Standard Version (RSV):

And if you say in your heart, "How may we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?"--when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.

Using a strictly literal interpretation of these verses as their guide, most if not all anti-Mormons insist that if a prophecy does not come to pass, it is automatically false, period.

These critics don't seem to realize they are stepping into quicksand when they use this criterion to attack Joseph Smith. The issue of prophecy is extremely complex. It is by no means as simple as a strictly literal understanding of Deuteronomy 18:21-22. The rigid anti-Mormon interpretation of these verses invalidates several Bible prophecies as much as it does some of Joseph Smith's prophecies. In fact, atheistic critics have used this same sort of approach to attack several prophecies in the Bible.

Rules on Prophecy

However, after studying prophecy for several years, I have deduced certain rules which, when taken into account, enable us to explain the difficult prophecies uttered by certain Bible prophets and by Joseph Smith. I will now list these rules. Most of them are intertwined to varying degrees.

1. Almost all prophecy is conditional to one degree or another, even if this is not stated in the prophecy itself (which is often the case).

2. In many cases human actions and choices can alter, postpone, or prevent the fulfillment of prophecy.

3. A prophecy is not always telling us what will happen, but what could happen under certain circumstances.

4. A prophet can misinterpret the timetable for a prophecy's fulfillment (this, of course, does not invalidate the prophecy itself).

5. A prophet can be mistaken about certain details of a prophecy but correct with regard to its central message.

6. A prophecy can apply to more than one occurrence or time period, i.e., it can have dual application.

7. A prophecy's fulfillment can be intended to take place in the spirit world or during the millennium, even if this is not stated in the prophecy itself.

8. The fulfillment of prophecy can go unobserved and/or unrecorded.

9. A prophecy can contain rhetorical overstatements. For example, a prophecy might read that "every single house" in a certain town will be "leveled to the ground," when what is really meant is that the town will suffer heavy destruction.

10. Such terms and expressions as "soon," "quickly," "in a little while," "shortly," etc., are often given from the Lord's perspective of time--so that "soon," for example, might turn out to be a very long time by our reckoning.

11. The text of a prophecy can undergo alteration to the point that it no longer reflects the original intent of the prophecy.
Therefore, just because a prophecy goes partially or totally unfulfilled does not mean it is false. Anyone who would deny this must explain those prophecies in the Bible which did not come to pass.

Difficult Bible Prophecies

Let us now examine three difficult Bible prophecies that would have to be rejected as false if we were to insist on judging them solely on the basis of a strictly literal reading of Deuteronomy 18:21-22.

In 2 Samuel 7:5-17, we read that the prophet Nathan unequivocally prophesied to David that through his son Solomon the Davidic empire would be established "forever," that the children of Israel would dwell in the promised land "and move no more," and that the "children of wickedness" would no longer afflict them. These things are quite clearly stated. No conditions are attached to these promises, none whatsoever.

That Nathan was predicting the permanent establishment of the temporal kingdom of David has even been acknowledged (albeit somewhat obliquely) by R. K. Harrison, a fine conservative Bible scholar:

The Davidic dynasty was confidently expected to usher in a new era of Israelite life of an enduring quality (2 Sam. 7:5ff), because it was firmly rooted in loyalty to the God of the Covenant. (1969:410, emphasis added.)

Robert Jamieson, Andrew Faucet, and David Brown concede that the promise of "the throne of his kingdom" being established "forever" (vs. 13) refers "in its primary application, to Solomon, and to the temporal kingdom of David's family" (587). The promise is reiterated in verse 16:

"thine [David's] house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever."

In short, as Robert H. Pfeiffer has stated, "... the point of II Samuel 7 is the eternity of this [the Davidic] dynasty" (370). It was because of the supposed permanence of the Davidic empire that the children of Israel would be able to remain in the promised land "and move no more" (vs. 10).

And, as for the assurance that the Israelites would no longer be afflicted by "the children of wickedness" (vs. 10), the New International Version phrases it this way: "Wicked people will not oppress them anymore." But, of course, what actually happened to the Davidic empire and to the children of Israel?

The Davidic dynasty was later smashed. The Israelites were driven and scattered from the promised land. And "wicked people" certainly continued to afflict and oppress them.

The second difficult Bible prophecy we will consider is one which is attributed to the Savior Himself. It is found in Matthew 10:23, wherein Jesus is represented as very matter-of-factly stating that His second coming would occur before the disciples returned from the mission on which He was then sending them. This, of course, did not happen. The verse reads as follows in the RSV:

"When they persecute you [the disciples] in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say unto you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes."

Howard Clark Kee has said the following about this verse:

"One of the most problematic sayings in the whole Synoptic tradition [i.e., Matthew, Mark, and Luke] is this explicit statement that the disciples will not have completed their mission tour before the Son of man comes, i.e., before the age ends and the kingdom of God arrives in its fullness. (In Laymon 622)"

Says T. F. Glasson, "Thus, before the disciples return Jesus expects to be caught up to heaven and to come down in glory" (57).

This verse is so problematic that many scholars have questioned its authenticity. Glasson notes that there is "widespread doubt concerning the genuineness of Matthew 10:23. . . ." (59).

The third difficult Bible prophecy we will consider is Judges 13:5, where it is recounted that an angel promised Samson's mother that Samson would "begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."

No matter how liberal or expansive one wants to be with the facts of Israelite history (as recorded in the Bible or elsewhere), there is no way it can reasonably be concluded that Samson fulfilled this prophecy.

Not only did Samson fail to even "begin" to free Israel from the Philistines, but (1) there were times when he consorted with Philistine women, (2) he married a Philistine, (3) he himself never even led any Israelite troops against the Philistines, and (4) the Philistines eventually humiliated him. Moreover, and most importantly, Israel actually lost ground to the Philistines during Samson's tenure. Judges 13-16 illustrates Philistine encroachment into Hebrew territory. The Samson narrative documents the eastward expansion of the Philistines by mentioning the Philistine presence in Timnah and Lehi, both in the strategic valley of Sorek (Achtemeier 1985:787-791). This Philistine expansion worsened the land shortage that eventually forced the Danites to migrate northward.
Of course, the nonfulfillment of Judges 13:5 can be attributed to Samson's failure to live according to his Nazirite calling. In addition to his sexual liaisons, he married a Philistine, ate unclean food, drank wine, and allowed his hair to be cut.

Therefore, it could be said that the angel's prophecy was nullified by Samson's behavior. However, the angel placed absolutely no conditions on his promise that Samson would begin to deliver Israel from the Philistines. He simply declared that Samson would do so.

Conclusion

The three Bible prophecies discussed above are certainly "difficult," to put it mildly. However, they can be explained, if one is willing to accept the rules on prophecy presented herein.

The exact same thing can be said about Joseph Smith's alleged "false prophecies." Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and he never uttered a single false prophecy.

Next question for you Joel, you say that you know Christ, and that you have received a foregiveness of your sins. I have no doubt that you honor and respect Jesus Christ, but how exactly did you receive a "foregiveness of your sins?"

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential for salvation. The ancient Christians and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints taught, and teach the same thing.

Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins. It is essential for salvation.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," said Jesus (Mark 16:16).

Also, John 3:5 "Except a Man be born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What Say Ye?

I wish the answer were your own David. Nice cut and paste job, though. I do agree with some of the rules of prophecy, but not all of them. This much I KNOW to be true...

"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

- Deuteronomy 18:21-22

I think you have attempted to wriggle out of Smith's FALSE prophecies by pointing out some difficult prophecies in the Scripture. IF there are indeed some difficult prophecies in Scripture, it does not excuse Smith from his obviously untrue prophecies. However, for the sake of keeping a focused discussion, I refuse to enter rabbit trail discussions about Baptism or any other topic. Instead, we'll deal with the supposed "difficult" prophecies, which I don't find difficult at all.

I am certain R. K. Harrison is a learned Bible scholar, but MANY scholars disagree with him. It can be easily established that the covenant made with David refers to three promises.

1) The house of David will always be the royal line (and Christ came from the house of David) - true

2) that the right to rule will always belong to David's offspring (Christ, again..) - true

3) the right to a literal, earthly Kingdom will never be taken from David's posterity. NOTE, this does NOT the guarantee that the rule would be uninterupted, but the prerogative to exercise the privilege of ruling would always belong to the Davidic dynasty.

The ultimate fulfillment of this promise will be realized when Christ comes again and rules among His people.

Next difficult passage is Christ's Word ins Matthew 10:23, "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Would you not agree that God's perspective on time and ours differ greatly? The way that Christ presents imminent events , which may be longer in time, is consistent with the old testament prophets. One writer suggests "it is like looking at two mountain ranges, not viewing the large valley between them. The church age is a valley between the first and second comings of Christ. It was a mystery hidden in God and not revealed in the Old Testament" I believe this is in line with your rule #10 of prophecy.

Difficult? Yes. But a deal-killer? Hardly. There is more than enough mystery in the things of God to strain at this gnat. Since we don't KNOW for sure, or even a little, that this is false, we have to assume that "God�breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" - 2 Tim 3:16

By the way, there are MANY difficult passages in Scripture. But it is incorrect to build a theology around difficult passages. A belief system should formed around that which the Bible consistently teaches, in spite of our limited understanding of passages which are not as obvious.

Regarding Samson:

1) Samson DID begin to deliver Israel. His act of faith of praying to God and pulling down the walls on his enemies killed more Philistines than ever before, many of them in the ruling class.

2) For some reason, you list all Samson's character faults. So what? Matthew was a tax collector. Jesus caught a woman in adultery. Nebuchednezzar was murderous. All of these turned from their ways. God's promises and workings are NOT dependant on our character. It is our very character flaws that demand the need for our salvation, and there is not one born who does not have this need, present company included.

Again, the author of your piece strains at a gnat, selecting obscure Scriptures with questionable meanings at best, to attempt to support Joseph Smith's false prophecies.

Now, I have dealt with the three "difficult" prophecies. What I would like to see is your answer to the seven "difficult" prophecies of Joseph Smith.

WOW! That was a great little dance you did there Joel. You didn't step on one of those hot coals (topics). Reverting back to attacks and avoiding the cold hard facts is very "democratic". You would make a great John Kerryite or better yet Clintonite.

Um... who the heck is "Mike"? This is the first time "Mike" has posted on this thread, so I have no idea what he is talking about.

Mormonism is a cult! You believe in Jesus, but you also believe that every individual man and woman has the potential for being "a god" like him! You idiots, don't you realize that YOU WERE CREATED BY HIM!! In the begining was THE WORD (Jesus), and Jesus, God Made Man, was THE WORD MADE FLESH. He is a person of the ONE TRUE GOD. Your belief that there can be other gods (men and women who reach that potential) IS NOT A CHRISTIAN BELIEF. Be a mormon if you wish, but stop calling yourself Christians!!!

I don't accept any of the "truth" you have to present to me. The ONLY truth that we can be absolutely certain of is that which comes from God himself. We are all imperfect men; liars and sinfull by nature. You can't be any more "truthful" than God, can you? I will trust what God tells me, and one day we will all know the truth. This includes even the almighty "truthmeister". You will someday be humbled when you REALLY have the truth, not your self-gratifying, arrogant views that you refer to as the truth. Your "truth" cannot set anyone free. Only truth from above. By the way, leave Mormons alone! Most of them that I know seem to be humble, good people. Moreover, since most of them do not go out of their way to bash other religions, maybe they stand a better chance than most to enter into Heaven. Remember this: Thou shalt not judge, lest ye be judged."

First of all, what are you ingesting?.. You're quoting statements about 'truth' when the word truth is not even in my post. However, belief is more along the lines that I was talking. I don't care what you think the "truth" is, but I KNOW what the CHRISTIAN BELIEF is about God, and one thing I know for sure is that no CHRISTIAN believes that he or she will ever be 'a god.' We were created by God---- Genesis 2:
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being...

Sure we are imperfect men--NEVER TO BE gods--and that is indeed why we needed GOD to come down to this earth and shed his blood for us. We are not perfect, we are forgiven.

I am not 'more truthful than God' But I know that as a CHRISTIAN, God has given us the 'truth' that we need in this world to get us to the next.

I don't wish to cause trouble to Mormons, but they should not call themselves Christians. Sure there are good and just Mormons as well as good and just members of most any religion you can name.

Matthew Chapter 7
1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.

2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?

4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye...

This is one of the most misunderstood and misused statements of Jesus. This statement is not telling us not to judge at all, it is just warning that WE TOO shall be judged and that if one judges harshly one may find oneself to be judged in the same way. But it does not mean that one shall not judge. When your children come to you and ask you if they can hang out with the known Drug-user or thief or gangster--make sure you remember that you should not JUDGE. Also, make sure you never praise any person as being good, and take back those comments that you made about the MORMONS that you know because that after all is a judgement and Jesus doesn't want us to judge ANYTHING (being sarcastic incase you didn't know).

As an Insider I have to say that I too am worried about Glenn and his Mormonism slowly ruining the show. That, and that he was sucked into a truly ridiculous cult. Come on, God was a man, man can become a god complete with his own planet? God lives on or near a star or planet named Kolob?
Hogwash, dangerous hogwash. I started reading the BoM once and all my bullcrap detectors went off.
Sad, it's really sad that an otherwise intelligent man would fall for this crap.

Hi everyone,
Mormonism is no cult. Anyone who has throughly studied our doctrine will come to see the truth, an all encompassing answer to the many questions many people have. For every "point" brought up by the people against Mormonism there is an answer. They obviously have not searched enough to have found it. If they had sincerely looked for, and prayed for the answers they would have recieved a witness. I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, it is the only church with the full truth beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Well, tell you what. There is nothing in the bible that supports polytheism. There is only one god---GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT--Three persons in one god. It's just fine if you want to be a mormon, but what I think most christians have a problem with is the fact that you call yourself Christians.

Hello, first time here and wanted to say hi

Joel, it's so sad that you're so full of contempt. How wonderful if you could be like the man in the following article, but I don't think you could be Christian enough:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/002/7.66.html

Does anyone know how Glenn came to the mormon faith? Did someone in his life tell him, was it missionaries, his wife what?

I respect mormons, they are conservative, family oriented, intellegent, and benevolent. It breaks my heart though, because do think the religion is false. I too had difficulty understanding Glenn's lack of critical analysis regarding the mormon church. but i accept him as the awesome talk show host, and influence that he is, and i appreciate his cander and style. in my opinion, he is the best that there is on the radio.

I just found out Glenn is Mormon and it just crushed me!!! It kills me to see people I actually respect falling for this cult. Dude, just the idea that a man can become a god with his own planet, that our God was once a man on a distant planet.....that is so much nonsense, and something that mormons won't tell you outright. WHat did happen to our mormon poster? Didn't see him respond to all that nonsensical garbage and blasphemy against our creator, the Lord Almighty who was NEVER a MAN on any planet. He has always been and always will be. That's what makes him God!!!

I just looked back at the posts....yep, our mormon friend really did do a disappearing dance when the truth kept being presented. The cross is foolishness to the perishing.....but to the saved it is the power of God.

This is one of the best blogs that I have ever read!

I just returned from a church meeting in which Mr. Beck spoke about his conversion to the LDS religion. To hear you say that he gave no critical thought to his decision to join the church is truly rediculous. He was looking for something that was right for him and his family and was very weary of even visiting the church.
Once he visited, he wanted to leave. However, he and his family felt that this was the way for them.
I do not know why you are all so concerned that someone finds something that truly makes them happy and a better person.
I do not intend to convince you that the church is true, only the spirit of God could ever truly do that. For Mr. Beck, for me, and many others around the country, the church is true and brings us immeasurable happiness and joy. I would hope that you would be happy for him rather than criticize him.

Ryan,

I am sure Mr. Beck's testimony was very inspiring. However, I am certain that he did not cast a critical eye on the doctrine of the LDS church. It is so incredibly UN-Christian, it is difficult to believe that people fall for it so easily. The doctrines and beliefs of the Mormon church simply do not line up the Holy Bible. There are more contradictions and outright distortions than one can possibly imagine. I have met very few Mormons who are willing to look at these issues closely, as the church leadership discourages them from doing so. That is one glaring sign of a cult. A religion is not true because it makes you feel good. It is only true if it is the TRUTH. Truth is not relative. It is absolute. I am happy for Mr. Beck's success as a radio personality and hope he one day applies the same critical thinking to his belief in God.

This page is an EXCELLENT starting place to debunking the cult of LDS.

http://www.irr.org/mit/biblepage.html

I have to say that most of this back and forth banter is really a shame. People who criticize another's religion are really sad. It is no one persons job here to judge another for their beliefs. Joel, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and one should be glad that you so ardently care about your fellow man's salvation. However, you are only human, so obviously as all humans, you have flaws. We all do. Do you think that just because there is proof of some idea here on earth that it makes it true? I have to tell you that is not correct. The bible was written by man, and therefore, it is prone to flaws. It is apparent that you are quite an intellectual, but there is only so much to TRUTH in this world. If you are only basing your life to that which you can see or feel, I believe you are sadly missing the point. This time on earth is for a reason. It is a test of your FAITH, among other things. If we all had the truth laid out for us, choosing the right wouldn't be so hard then would it? You should not look down at your fellow man for what he or she believes in ESPECIALLY when I really don't feel that it affects the way you sleep at night. SERVICE, LOVE FOR YOUR FELLOW MAN, LOVE FOR HEAVENLY FATHER AND HIS BEGOTTEN SON JESUS CHRIST. What is the big deal Joel? Why is it that you must INSIST that we are wrong and obviously YOU have supreme knowledge and are right? No one will know EXACTLY the truth until we pass on, and as for me, and I'm sure for other Mormons out there I believe in the truthfulness of the Gospel. If LOVE is blind, than maybe I'm blindfolded, however I am the happiest now as a member of the church, than I have ever been in my life. I would rather be deaf, blind and dumb, but still be able to FEEL the spirit of TRUTH, than to be surrounded by all of the books and knowledge in the world, and truly not be able to discern or FEEL the truthfulness of it. I try everyday to be a servant of the Lord, to try to better MYSELF, and to live like HE did. We are Christians, we Love and believe in Christ our Savior. We are saved because of His atoning sacrifice, not because we love service, but because He was his Father's servant. As far as becoming God's and Goddesses how do you know that it is not true? Im sorry but your opposition to something does not erase any possibility of this. I still dont know why people choose not to have faith. Yes, it is a choice. Well, as for me I feel good when I lay my head down at night, even if there is the smallest chance that there is no truth to anything. I could die right now, and know that I was a faithful servant, and that I led a good life. What harm is there to that? Even if it is in ignorance? Do you think God holds people accountable for not having the proper knowledge? NO, of course he doesnt, he loves all of his children no matter what they do. And I think that he weeps when there is contention in our lives instead of LOVE for one another. I think that maybe if you put HALF as much time into serving others, and doing good things(which does not include religion bashing nomatter HOW much you think you are helping someone, really your just pushing them away from you) You must LOVE in order for others to feel the truth. If you cannot do that, than you are the one who walks without his light, and you will have to walk in darkness until that principle is learned. But just a sidenote, THAT alone does not make you a bad person, or sentence you to Hell or anything stupid like that. You will just have to wait and finally see the truth with all the rest who have no faith. God knows the intentions of your heart. He knows who you are, like no one else can. He knows even the number of hairs on your head. He knows you better than you know yourself because you are His child. So only he can have ultimate judgement on you or any of us. So please stop bashing Mormons just because it is not what you will accept. What is right will always be right, whether or not the world will accept it. And again you are entitled to your opinion, but it is still not nice to be nasty! :)

Amber,

Your sentiments are quite nice and your heart is obviously in the right place. But I can sum up my reasons by a brief parable followed by a simple question.

You went shopping for a new car and decided to buy the luxury vehicle. It is a beautiful automobile with everything you ever wanted in a car. You LOVE the feel of it, and it looks nice too! Your friends drive a similar car and they enjoy theirs also. You feel like you fit right in. She's a beauty!

What if I could tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that your car was built with faulty parts and that it would eventually EXPLODE while you were driving it? Would you still want that car?

Mormonism is not based in truth. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Feelings change like the wind. One day we feel good. Another day we feel bad. In fact, our feelings frequently LIE to us in order to protect us. However, we must base important decisions in our lives on much more than our feelings. We must seek out truth and pursue it with a zeal.

Yes, you could die right now and think you would be happy. However, according to the Bible, that is not the truth.

You can go on thousands of years of history (and I suggest truly researching it in order to deal with your questions of whether or not it is verifiable truth), or you can go on the word of a proven liar (Joseph Smith) who has sold you and millions of others a pack of lies. Some people prefer to feel good and ignore the warnings, comfortable in their self-deceit. Others accept the challenge and are willing to accept the consequences of what they discover, regardless of how it makes them feel.

Which will you be?

Don't take my criticism as anti-Mormon. I am pro-people, and I care about your final destination.

Wow! Look at all the comments on Mormonism!
Well, I'm not here to prattle on about hair-splitting theology and post Bible verses to back up my arguments. (Seems that folks who love to argue via Bible verses never stop to consider that the Bible itself wasn't really compiled until a bunch of White Guys got together at Emporer Contantine's Council of Nicea about 600 years after the fact, and decided based on thier personal bias what to put in and what to leave out... but, I digress. )
Personally, my B.S. filters turn on every time any group or "ism" claims have the market cornered on the truth -- be it Christian fundamentalism, Atheism, Liberalism, Conservativism or even Moonie-ism.
I lived in really heavy Mormon country about four hours from Salt Lake City for years, and have to say they're pretty nice folk, just a little uptight.
Buy again, I digress.
On to Glenn Beck.
I've listened to his show quite a bit. And I hate to sound mean... but the guy strikes me as just plain stupid.
No, I'm not saying "ignorant" (he's that too, as well as grossly misinformed on many things he prattles on about.) Because very intelligent people can still be ignorant.
No, I'm talking just plain, old-fashioned, garden-variety, not-very-smart, just plain stupid.
He reminds me of those guys you would meet at a party in college, who was trying just way, way too hard to impress you.. when really, he was just too stupid and everybody wanted him to go away.
Personally, I think the reason Rush Limbaugh and all who rode in on his coat-tails (of which Glenn Beck is one) do so well is the same reason Michael Moore's films do so well.
People who are intellectualy lazy like to be told what they want to hear. So, die-hard conservatives will tune into Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh to be told what they want to hear, and die-hard lefties will go see Michael Moore's movies and not question anything they see on the screen.
Me, I like to get my information from print media, because it's usually done by true professionals who actaully go out into the field and research what they are talking about. It's not just all bells and whistles and B.S.�which is what you tend to get in broadcast media. For good, solid print journalism that leans to the left, I'd recommend the Atlantic Monthly. To balance that out with right-leaning print, try the National Review or American Spectator.
If you want mindless entertainment, go ahead and listen to talk radio or watch Moore's "documentaries."
But please, don't kid yourself into thinking you're getting anything remotely resembling well-researched, logically sound, objectivly factual information from such sources.

As Joel said and I quote: "But the fact that he gave it 'thought' and still ended up in the Mormon church is incredibly confusing. Mormonism is NOT a religion based on thought. It is based mostly on feeling and self-supporting statements." Critical thought leads more people out of the Mormon church than vice-versa. This is what puzzles me so. The Mormon cult is a house of cards that my 11-year old can see through."
Critical thought is what caused churches to mushroom all over the place--while declaring their monopoly on the word "Christian" yet disagreeing with all others. I suggest the following: (1) Go to the source with a sincere heart, devoid of any bias; (2) Given all the teachings the Savior left us, why don't you stop tearing others down and just preach Christ because, sincerely you do *NOT* prove yourself right by telling everyone they are wrong; (3) If you have a lot of time on your hands, why not put yourself out there and profer up something body of doctrine that you believe in so that all the other folks out there can tear it down... it's always easier to tear other's down than putting yourself and your beliefs out there; and (4) and lastly, answer me this: Is GB closer to living a life which more closley resembles that of the Savior because he is a Mormon as opposed to the life he lived before? Here is some critical thought for you... I think the answer is "Yes." P.S. Your "critical thought" and claims of lacking "archeological proof" is only as good until someone smarter or some archeological prrof in support of something comes along. If you feel the need to preach something in the name of your self-proclaimed altruism, just ask yourself if you have to tear someone down first. If the answer is "yes" then quit and preach something else. Great blog though inspite of the religion mongering. PPS Oh, and if I or anyone else doesn't respond to you or anyone else of your ilk, then don't flatter yourselves by saying that you have figuratively run the monster out of town with your sophistry. Sometimes, sensible people will acknowledge the futility of an activity and move on.

I was looking up information on Glen Beck and came across this website and thought it was funny. Everyone believes they have the “inside scoop” or theirs is the “informed opinion” and everyone else is blind. I find it humorous when people write things like “even my 11 year old can see the holes in Mormonism.” That must be one amazing 11 year old because there are some pretty thoughtful people who have been “blinded” by Mormonism. Harry Reid, Mitt Romney, the Marriott family (of the hotel chain), the founder and owner of Jet Blue, Dell Computers, the CEO of Black and Decker, not to mention many in the top management at Goldman Sachs and Citibank. There is no use in getting defensive. Everyone has the right to believe what they want. Much of the time that is spent tearing down religion could be spent doing good or figuring out some economic regression model (my field of study). I have had an opportunity of studying most religions and have done so by asking practicing members of each particular faith. I have also read many books written by practicing members of faiths, ex-members, and non-members. I can honestly say that the practicing members understand their religion better than those on the outside. When reading someone’s opinion about a particular subject, in this case religion, I would suggest always asking ones self what the author stands to gain from stating their opinion. You will find that many times peopl