Truth Soup

Hey moron, how is pre-emptive war on Iraq in DEFENSE of the Constitution of the United States?

I gladly pay the $55 a year to have access to Glenn's web site. He's awesome! Funny, insightful, patriotic. The program is very professionally produced and a pleasure to listen to each day.

I want to express my appretiation for Joel's concern for our salvation. I'm sure that his zeal comes from his love for the savior and creator of the universe. I need to go on record about his comments on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are christians. I don't think anyone has the right to pass judgement on another who proffesses Jesus Christ as Lord , God, and Savior. He is the devine Son of our Father in Heaven. Joel, have you OBJECTIVELY read the Book of Mormon for yourself(cover to cover). Have you asked God if the Book of Mormon is His word, or if we are Christian? Have you noticed the comprehensive footnote system in our sciptures that link together the Book of Mormon and the Bible (we use the King James version)? Or have you recieved your information from people who spend their lives tareing down a church that proclames salvation through the atoneing blood of our God, Jesus Christ. I wonder if your information comes from "ex- Mormons" such as Ed Decker. He as well as many others who fight so hard against this using distortions and 1/2 truthes are full of Hate and contempt. Such contention does not invite the Spirit of God, on the contrary it chases the Spirit away. If One tusts God then why would he not ask Him? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is The Lord Jesus Crist's Church. The Book of Mormon is every bit the word of God as the Holy Bible is. I have read both multiple times. studied prayed and feasted on them. I was raised Jewish and from the Book of Mormon first and then the Bible I now know that Jesus truely is the Christ, the Holy One Of Israel. He has made an infinite atonement for my sins and for as many as will come unto Him. I know that the Jewish people need not look anymore for the Messiah to come. For He has come! and will soon return to honor His covenant with His people. I love Him and I love His word with all my heart.

I was enjoying your comments until you blasted religion...shows you true depth of thought...which is none

I've been listening to Glenn since they started playing his show in my area (shortly after 9-11). He's one of the most entertaining men I've ever heard.

I was crushed though, when he said that he was a Mormon. The difference between Christians and Mormons is in the details. Mormons believe in "salvation," but their definition differs greatly (as do many things) with the christian definition of it.

To the schmuck that made the first comment, please tell me where in the entire article does it say that we started the war in defense.

Your religion bashing is rather inept. Beck started my conversion to Mormonism, where I now feel comfortable and at peace, compared to five different Protestant denominations that left me in counseling.

Truthmeister Replies: I am sorry you did not find Christ in the so-called churches you attended. Bearing the name "Protestant" does not necessarily mean you will find truth there. The fact is, the peace you are now experiencing is likely related to your feelings rather than the veracity of Mormon doctrine. Unfortunately, you have been duped into joining one of the world's largest cults, where there is no salvation.

After listening to Glenn Beck off and on for the past year or so, I've come to realize he's just one of those guys we've all known at some point in our lives. You know, the guy who's basically a loser in life (alcoholic, divorced, multiple short term jobs, etc., etc.), but well read enough to sound intelligent and appear emotionally stable as he ardently professes his latest awakenings to the "real" truth and meanings in life.

The only difference between Beck and the 40 year-old hardware store department manager is Beck somehow got a big enough audience of fools to listen and follow to make him, at least for now, successful. The real test will be if he has any staying power, and how long it will take his cadre of fools to finally wake up and realize Beck doesn't have any better answers to the problems of the world than they do.

And to top it all off, his show gets a little boring, as he goes on and on and on and on about the same topics. At first he was interesting, but after a couple months or so, I'd pretty much heard everything he had to say.

A quote from The Book of Mormon: "I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent."

And another for good measure: "And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

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TruthMeister's Comments: The Book of Mormon is a sham, a fraud perpetrated by a mixed up, power hungry false Christ. I recommend doing a deep study of this cult as the state of your soul is at stake

Mormons aren't the devil. Glenn Beck isn't the devil. Satan is the devil. I admit, I was surprised to hear that Glenn Beck affiliates with the Mormon church as well. He's not like the thousands of Mormons I went to school with in Utah growing up. Also, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to draw the parallels between Mormonism and masonry to figure out what Joseph Smith really based this religion on. But, on the other hand, get off the backs of Mormons. So they don't believe the way you - as a Protestant - do. It's almost EXACTLY like Catholicism and nobody's saying Catholics are members of one really big cult. Am I Mormon? No. Do I ever intend to be? Nope. But take some time and look into the religion for yourself. Yes, you may find it's full of holes and perversions of the scripture quoted from the one and only word of God - The Bible - but nowhere in there will you find that Mormons are cultish, ax-wielding Charlie Manson impersonators.

Steve, I appreciate your comments. I'm not sure why TruthMeister would think that if I sincerely believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died to atone for my sins and that I cannot be saved except through his grace I'm going to hell because I also happen to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. And what if I also believe that "faith without works is dead" as is written in the Book of James? If my belief in or interpretation of that scripture is mistaken but I still accept Jesus Christ as my savior, why can't I be saved like all Protestants who accept Jesus? I don't think that all protestants believe exactly the same thing about the nature of God, Jesus Christ, grace, salvation, an so on. So why are Mormons the only ones going to hell?

Most protestants are going to hell anyway. Glenn Beck seems to be a good person, despite his checkered past. The only truly Christian religions are Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox religions. The other "Christian" faiths took it upon themselves to reinterpret the Bible for their own prerogatives (except maybe the Lutherans). However, if you can live a Biblical life you should not be criticized whatever your religious affiliation may be.

Ron, spoken like a good indoctrinated Catholic! Bravo!

Visit http://www.pro-gospel.org for a dose a truth about the Catholic church.

Mormons believe in ANOTHER Jesus. Clearly not the one proclaimed in the Gospels.

I refer you to some very helpful resources written by Mormons that have escaped the clutches of this deceptive cult.

http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html

GB is a great talk show host. Avid fans have noticed a shift in the past few months to more of a religious tone and more Mormon doctrine slipping into his monologues. It remains to be seen where this will go.. will Mormonism take Glenn Beck, or will Glenn Beck take Mormonism? All I can say is.. the sick freaks hope it doesn't all just crash and burn.

Great points, Ken. I really am bumfuzzled over how Glenn could be so blinded by Mormonism. Its so obvious to outsiders, but insiders just will not look at the facts objectively. In fact, like Jehovah's Witnesses, some are taught not to look at sources from outside the church. A sure sign that the organization is attempting to control the flow of information.

But what I find so amazing is the GB exhibits so much common sense in all other areas of his life. I don't think he can see the forest for the trees in his spiritual life. We can continue to pray that he will come out from apostosy and into the true saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I'm been a fan of Glenn's for a couple of years and listen while I drive on XM everyday.

There was a South Park episode where a Mormon family moved into the neighborhood. After listening to the history of the church, the one kid (sorry I don't watch it that much) that wanted to be the new kids friend, basically thought they were freaks and wanted nothing to do with him anymore.

I loved the final scene that went something like - the new kid admitted that his religion was based on some strange stuff, but it made him and his family feel good about themselves and they were all happy. And what's wrong with that? And if he didn't want to be his friend, then that was his problem.

What's wrong with the idea that the family and marriage is eternal? Your body and mind should be treated with respect and you help others less fortunate?

Glenn explained his "Spiritual Journey" in his book and also on an insider show. He just didn't pick the Mormon's without some thought. And even afterward, has always questioned the church. But if it's right for him and his family, what's it to you?

I love these people that think their religion is the right one and everyone else is nuts! What difference does it make what religion one goes to, it's how one live's their religion and their life that matters.

Drop the religion aspect all it does is show how shallow you are.

Wayne

Sorry Wayne.. doesn't fly.

Discussing Mormonism and any religion is not "shallow". In fact, having the courage to face religion and politics is anything BUT shallow. We MUST be able to have discourse on the nature of Truth, else we really have nothing but smalltalk.

And it is of no eternal consequence to me if Beck is a Mormon. But the fact that he gave it "thought" and still ended up in the Mormon church is incredibly confusing. Mormonism is NOT a religion based on thought. It is based mostly on feeling and self-supporting statements. Critical thought leads more people out of the Mormon church than vice-versa. This is what puzzles me so. The Mormon cult is a house of cards that my 11-year old can see through.

Joel, You are the reason a great many people hate "Christians". And no thank you to your ilk for hijacking a beautiful religion such as Christianity and turning it into a mass-marketing joke. Go drown an anchor, you fundamentalist waste of skin.

I heard that Glenn Beck was a Mormon and decided to search for the answer. This is the only place I found it. I am a bit suprised to hear this. I share his political views - and turns out his religious views, too. It is just strange to me because I have felt at times that his show was a bit loud, rude, and disrespectful. I would think that a Mormon would know better, but it takes all kinds I guess.

Mormons, just like any other religious people, are made up of lots of different individuals who share some beliefs and who differ on others. I am glad that all of you are concerned about religion. I can't speak for all Mormons, but I love my Savior Jesus Christ. I love the scriptures. I love the Bible, the Old and New Testaments, and I love the Book of Mormon. They all teach me of Christ and his place in my life.

I love religion. My religion is so special to me that I have great respect for all religious people and all wholesome religious beliefs that lead people to be good and love and serve their neighbors. These are Christian principles no matter who is living them. These principles can be found in all major religions. Christ said that if we are His, we are one. We need to look for the beliefs we have in common and this is where we as people will be able to establish our peaceful associations and governments. Then we need to allow each other to vary on other points of the law as our understandings and conscious dictate.

We can all start with ourselves by not tearing down another's religious beliefs, but find something there you can respect. This will strengthen the gratitude you have for your own beliefs and as your relationships with people improve, so will your relationship with God.

I am a Christian - I believe in the peaceful, loving ways of Christ. He, God himself, was accepting and loving while He was on the earth. That is what He has asked us to be - follow him by respecting the good beliefs and doctrines of others. Christ loved sinners. If we are Christian, we can too - even when that sinner is ourself.

P.S. If you REALLy want to know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you can go to www.mormon.org or to www.lds.org - these web sites are both official websites of the church. The first is mainly a site for people wishing to learn more while the latter is a site with everything a practicing Mormon might need. Church publications are all there, even the lessons we have on Sunday morning. It is all there.

Yes, we may seem a little cultish at times with our knee length shorts, green jell-o salads, CTR rings (Choose the Right),temples, exotic scriptures (Book Of Mormon), and RULDS2 bumper stickers but we, for the most part, are good, friendly ( I hope), trying to follow Jesus people. At times we do get a little pushy trying to force our religion on people - but it is all in an effort to share what is so precious to us. We just don't always present it well.

Perhaps we should share our cake on china with silver forks and linen knapkins instead of throwing a fistful in someone's face. If we err, it is in our presentation. We love Jesus Christ. And somehow he tolerates us, and even loves us too.

Hope this helps anybody who wants to know more. You can visit the websites.

I decided to leave Mr. Hendrie's "comments" on my blog even though he was incredibly rude to me. I think they serve as a great example of the hate that exists in the heart of some people. Certainly, he can use all the prayer he can get. Apparantly, he is a radio talk show host in Los Angeles. I'm not sure if he hates Glenn Beck as much as he hates me, but perhaps there is some envy there.

Anyway, thank you Mr. Hendrie for your comments. I don't presume to know you, or to label you so you fit comfortably in my little box, but what I have seen so far is not appealing.

While I appreciate Angela's comments and her choice to be a Mormon, I must stand up and speak out against the cult as Jesus Himself told us there would be imposters in the last days.

When He ascended into heaven, the angel asked the apostles what they were looking at. He said that Jesus would return the very way He left... in the clouds. That automatically rules out Jesus appearing in the Americas as Joseph Smith proclaimed. (and which there is absolutely NO verifiable archeological evidence of His appearance in the Americas).

This site has done a superb job of deconstructing the Mormom cult, including blatant contradictions in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, verifiable changes in the Book of Mormon and inside scoop of what really goes on in the mormon church.

I have no doubt that Mormons are sincere people, devoted to seeking and worshipping God. However, they are sincerely wrong and have not accepted God's way to salvation.

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm

Peace,

Joel

Joel,

By your comments you must be some type of big anti-mormon quack. Let it go. People like you spend their miserable lives attacking, cricticizing, and bad mouthing the church, but the only person that you're hurting are your selves. You're not stoping one of the fastest growing churches world wide from seperating the wheat from the tares.

Take a look at your sources of information, they're ANTI-MORMON! Do you really think they're going to give you a good representation of what the church stands for?

IF you wanted to learn more about Jesus Christ, who would you ask to tell you about it, Judas or Peter? Exactly, and why would you not want to ask Judas? For the same reason people shouldn't believe anything you say. It's slanted, biased, hateful, and false.

Read "Are Mormons Christians?" by Stephen E. Robinson if you have any questions about Mormons being Christians in every sense of the word.

Nonsense. Of course the sources are ANTI-MORMOM, as you say. These are from former Mormons who have been exposed to the truth of Scripture and have come to see the huge chasm that separates the cult from the real thing. Everyone and everything has a slant. Jesus had one. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." If that isn't slanted, I don't know what is.

Mormons are not Christian in any sense of the word. Their man-made organization is based on a fictional story created by a power-hungry madman. Their doctrines stand in stark contrast to the doctrines of Scripture.

As for me being a miserable quack, as you said, you don't know me well enough to judge me. I was merely commenting on Beck's ignorance where his church affiliation is concerned. I am not hurt by his choices or by the fact that the Mormon church is thriving. The Scripture is clear that many false Christs would arise and that the lemmings would fall for it. My eternity is sealed, but I have compassion on those who have chosen the broad path to destruction.

The Lord once asked Job, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"
(Job 37:2) Know we know the answer, it's Joel!

This silly cult business has really got to stop. You seem to be an educated person, but please, stop embarrassing yourself. By what definition is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints a cult?

Your logic seems to be that there are objective criteria for distinguishing "cults" from "religions," and since Mormonism is a "cult" and Christianity is a "religion," Mormons can't be Christians. Is that it? What is your reasoning?

There's no need to judge Joel, you've already incriminated yourself of being a quack. The proof is in your entries. Jesus not only warned about false Christs, but also about over zealous extremists: Mathew 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kindgom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in the name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

LOL! Well, there is a book of Joel in the Bible. Does that make me a minor prophet? (Note the tongue in cheek, please...)

I am not embarrassed for the sake of Christ, nor of the truth of His gospel!

But you ask an excellent question, Dave! I hope you ask it sincerely. The Bible tells us to test EVERYTHING to see if it lines up with the teachings of Scripture. So exactly what makes a "Christian" cult?

First of all, realize that there IS objective criteria. If you don't have a foundation for your faith that you can base your beliefs on, your faith is useless and utterly meaningless. However, if you have a belief system, you are able to compare and contrast what others say about God. Among Bible-believing Christians, it is common knowledge that Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science are cults.

If you are truly interested in finding out why many believe this to be true, this synopsis found on the Christian Apologetics and Research Page is a great starting point. They have done an excellent job of summarizing where belief systems go awry by incorrectly interpreting the Word of God.

http://www.carm.org/cults/cults.htm

Joel, not the fount of wisdom, but I know Him!

"The Bible tells us to test EVERYTHING to see if it lines up with the teachings of Scripture"

Joel,

I'm glad that you think this way, because it is important to study the scriptures so that we may know the truth, and truth is what it's all about. "And the truth shall make you free" John 8:32.

Jesus Christ came to the earth to teach truth, whether we accept it or not is our choice, but the truths and principles of the gospel still remain. We know that the truth is in Jesus Christ, for he is "the way, the truth and the light." The truth is not only in Jesus Christ, but it is also in his church, The Church of Jesus Christ. He came here to fulfill a mission, to do the will of his Father, to redeem all mankind from both temporal and spiritual death. He came here to save us. He formed a church, and the New Testament contains the blueprints of that church. It is our guide and resource to the original Church of Jesus Christ, the True Church of Jesus Christ, the Church that we should all be looking for if we are honest seekers of TRUTH. That is why it is so important that we seek out truth, that we follow truth, and defend truth against those who (sometimes unknowingly) seek to destroy it. More on that later on, but first this silly cult business:

This cockamamie link that you gave to defend your position that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a cult, that Mormons aren't Christians, let's look at these lame arguments.

First, your definition. The "dictionary?" says that a cult is-

1. A system of religious worship or ritual
2. Devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for a person, principle, etc.
3. A group of followers

So using these definitions that you gave, what is the destinction between a cult and a religion? By your standards, the terms are quite synonymous. In fact, the greatest cult leader of all time would in fact be Jesus Christ because he had a devoted group of followers who were quite extravagent in their system of religious worship. Wouldn't you say? (Remember, we're going after Truth here, not your negative evaluation of Mormonism.)

So, you make up your own definition, "a group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures......if it does, it distorts the true biblical doctrines that effect salvation sufficiently so as to void salvation." You go on to say that "some cult groups even add to the bible, i.e. Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, ect."

Let's talk about these added definitions that you come up with for a second.....Any objective definition of a cult that you use by these standards that can be applied to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can also be applied to the Christian church of the New Testament and to most of today's mainline denominations when they were in their infancy.

Mormons accept the Bible as the word of God as far as it is translated correctly, we also accept the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. That makes us a cult?

We're a cult because we possess some additional scripture which adds additional insight into Gods word as proclaimed by the bible? Do you really believe that? Did John not say "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
Do you think that Jesus only loved the people in Jerusalem? Are we not all God's children? You don't think God loved the people who lived here in America as well?

The early Christian Church claimed that the new covenant of the gospel and the New Testament that records it superseded the old covenant of the law of Moses and the Old Testament that records it (Galatians 3:24-29; Hebrews 8:7-13;10:8-9). To the scriptures accepted during Jesus' lifetime as the word of God the Christians ADDED at least four Gospels, a book of Acts, 21 Epistles, and an Apocalypse.

The Jews were just as incensed at these spurious (from their point of view) additions to God's word in the period of the early Church as anti-Mormon critics like yourself are at the Book of Mormon today.

Early Christians added books to the accepted cannon of scriptures, and insisted that the New Testament fulfilled and superseded the Old. So using your definition, early Christianity was a "cult."

"Cult" is a subjective word meaning, to the particular person using it, "a religion I don't like." When someone refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a "cult," that simply tells us that they don't like the Church. Christianity itself was once a new religion with dynamic leadership, strong in-group bonding, high moral expectations, and additional scriptures, all of which greatly offended the mainline religions of the day. They attempted to convert the world to a trugh no one else had. By the most objective definitions that you have proposed so far for the term cult, early Christianity was one. So any general definition of a cult that would fit the Latter Day Saints will also fit New Testament Christianity- but that's not bad company to be in.

Next, a classic, you go on to say that "cults say that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient, but our works must be "mixed with' or 'added to' his in order to prove that we are saved and worthy of salvation." Let's be honest about this one, this is what Mormons say, right?

Well, Joel, you are wrong. Mormons do not believe in salvation by works. We don't. That human beings can save themselves by their own efforts is contrary to the teachings of the Book of Mormon. When you enter into a covenat agreement with God, the promise is that if I will do A, God will grant B-the very fact that such a covenant has been offered to me and that I am able to receive such overwhelming blessings in return for such palrty efforts is in itself an act of grace, an expression of the pure love of God, a gift. Salvation itself is the result of such a covenant of grace- "the new testament (or covenant)in my blood" Luke 22:20.The very existence of this covenant is a gift, a grace offered by Jesus Christ. Yet like all covenants, there are terms binding upon both parties. Our best efforts to live the laws of God are required, but not because they earn the promised rewards- our efforts are infinitely disproportionate to the actual costs. Rather, our best efforts are a token of our good faith and of our acceptance of the offered covenant. Thus we participate in our own salvation as we attempt to keep the commandments of God, but we can never earn it ourselves or bring it to pass on our own merits, no matter how well we may think we are doing.

Salvation can never come as the result of an individual's own efforts, but only through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon teaches this explicitly in 2 Nephi 2:3, 5-8

Latter-Day Saints endorse the validity of salvation through grace by faith (D&C 20:30) but insist that "faith" be not totally divorced from its Semitic origin meaning "faithful" (Hebrew 'aman) and become watered down to mean mere mental assent (James 2:14-26).

To have "faith" in Christ must in some degree imply subsequent "faithfulness" to Christ as Lord. The LDS concept of being "in Christ" (Paul's term) or being "perfect in Christ" (Moroni's term) is one of covenant relationship. There are no preconditions for entering into the covenant of faith in Christ to be justified by his grace through faith, there are covenant obligations incurred by so entering. Those who have been justified by faith are obliged to serve Christ and to make him their Lord by imitating him in their behavior and keeping his commandments (John 14:15, 21; 15:8, 10; Romans 6:16; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.)

Christians who come to Christ must assume his yoke, and "endure to the end" (Mathew 24:13; Mark 13:13). Mere belief doesn't give you salvation. The devils knew that Jesus was the Christ, they didn't just believe, they knew it, but they weren't saved. Latter-day Saints reject the Calvinist doctrine of eternal security, or once-saved-always-saved, it follows that we also accept the possibility that one may "fall from grace" (Galatians 5:4; 2 Peter 3:17) or fail to "endure to the end." This may come about if we rebel against God and refuse to serve him as promised, thus denying both our vassalage and Christ's lordship. After being born again Christians may either "endure" in their commitment to Christ and their desire for him or "fall from grace" through willful rebellion, by withholding their promised hearts (Galatians 5:4; D&C 20:32).

Lastly, you say that Jesus warned that in the last days false prophets would come. Well, if there are false prophets, doesn't there have to be a true prophet? Where is the true prophet on the earth today Joel? Joel was a prophet, he received revelation from God to guide his people in his day, where is our prophet, in our day? Why did God reveal to Noah how to build the ark, and not Adam? Could it be that it wasn't Adam's problem? Noah received revelations that were relevant for his time, for his day, not for Adam. There is a living prophet on the earth today, and he receives modern day revelation directly from Jesus Christ to guide his Church, the Church of Jesus Christ.

If the bible tells us to test everything, where's a living prophet? Where are the 12 apostles? Judas died, and they called another to fill his vacancy. After Christ's ascention into heaven, Peter received the revelation to take the gospel to the gentiles. Why? Because he was the person that Jesus chose to be the prophet, the individual to receive revelation from Christ to guide his church, the Church of Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in a modern day prophet, you don't believe in the scriptures.

The scriptures never say that revelation will cease, that that God will stop communicating with his children. In fact they say the opposite. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stands alone as the only true and living church upon the face of the earth today.

Pretty bold statement? It's not me who is making it, it is Jesus Christ. He is at the head of this church, not Mormon, or Joseph Smith, but Jesus Christ. It bears his name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

If you're up to it Joel, let me throw a little food for thought your way, and get your explanation on things.......maybe it'll trigger a sincere study of the principles of Truth that Joseph Smith restored to Christianity, and add some additional light to your Christian life.

Thanks for your well-reasoned and sincere post, Dave. But you have given me no new food for thought. There is WAY too much stuff in your post to refute. And I've discussed these points with Mormon missionaries at my door before, pointing out the doctrinal differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism. So rather than paint a broad brush and debate what is a cult, or how I believe your interpretation of Scripture is incorrect, perhaps a more focused discussion on the key doctrines would be more productive.

Here are some of the troubling issues with Mormon doctrine:

- Mormonism denies the scriptural doctrine of the Trinity and the true deity of Christ
- Mormonism teaches there is more than one God (in fact, the teaching is that there are MANY)
- Mormonism teaches that God the Father is literally an exalted man with a physical body of flesh and bones
- Mormonism teaches that human beings can become gods themselves. ("As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become")
- Mormonism teaches that Jesus was born into this worth the physical and sexual union between God the Father and Mary
- Mormonism teaches that eternal life is attained by a person's works and NOT by grace alone.

This doesn't even get into the fact that there is no evidence from non-Mormon archaeologists proving the existance of these beings that lived in the Americas at the supposed time. It doesn't touch on the fact that Mormons believe Jesus came from the planet Kolob. And the list goes on.

If you wish to pick one specific area of doctrine from those I have listed, we can test it and see if it holds water!

Joel,

I'd be happy to discuss these points with you, and will request you you respond in kind to some questions that I have as well. My point isn't to convince or convert, but to educate so you can stop this libeling of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I doubt if there's anyone else who reads these posts besides us, but the things that you have posted previously are false, and the truth deserves to be told. I have alredy proven that your definition of a cult is flawed, in that by the this same standard the original New Testament Church would have been labeled a cult. When you say that Mormons are a cult, you are only saying that you dislike or disagree with what the Church teaches.

Now, remember Joseph Smith's first vision, he went to the grove of trees early in 1820 to ask God the Father which of all the churches was true. He assumed that one of them had to be true, and believed that Heavenly Father would tell him which one was. He was only 14. How old was Samuel, David, or Jeremiah?

God the Father and Jesus Christ did appear to Joseph Smith, and did answer his prayer. The entire Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints either stands or falls on this Vision. Either Joseph really did see God and Jesus, or he didn't. It is either TRUE or FALSE. If Joseph lied about the First Vision, then he lied about the Book of Mormon, receiving the visitation of Angels, restoration of the priesthood, ect. There is no middle ground in this story. It is either the greatest thing that has happened since the Meridian of time, or it is the greatest lie to have ever been concocted by anyone. Modern Day Propet, or New England Fantasy Fiction Farmboy.

Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that the churches of the day "draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

When the Angel Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith he told him that Joseph's name "would be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people." This has certaintly happened, wouldn't you say? If it's such a lie, why the big fuss? Who cares? Why worry about?

So point #1: Mormonism denies the scriptural doctrine of the Trinity and the true deity of Christ.

I definitely have to disagree with you on this one Joel, and counter by saying that the Mormons are the only ones who have a clear understanding of the doctrine of the trinity and the deity of Christ. Why? Because Joseph Smith was a First Hand personal witness of both God the Father and Jesus Christ. He saw them, both of them. Two individuals. Distinct. Seperate. In that single revelation, Joseph Smith learned more about the true nature of God than had been learned by all of Chrisitanity for centuries. Thus, the things that Joseph Smith did are often referred to as the RESTORATION, because he restored essential gospel truths that had been lost through the centuries. He restored to mankind the true nature of God the Father, of his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. He witnessed it personally.

So what is the true biblical doctrine of the trinity? Doesn't that depend what religion you are? The Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all affirm their belief in a triune God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit-as the central tenet of the Christian Faith. Triune: "Being three in one. Used especially of the Christian Trinity." Is that what you believe Joel? Are God and Jesus the same person? Is that what the bible teaches?

Mormon's belief is simple, It's the first Article of Faith, "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."

An excellent scriptural reference is the baptism of Jesus Christ as found in Mark 1:9-11.

"And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And Straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the spirit like a dove descending upon him; And there came a voice from heaven saying, "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

I could share a ton of other passages, but this one is pretty clear. Jesus Christ, the Son, being baptized in the Water. God in Father speaking, "Thou (Jesus) art my beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased." And finally the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, descending "like a dove." The sign of the Dove, a witness of that administration. A witness of the Holy Ghost, a sign of the Holy Ghost, signifying the truthfulness of the deed. The dove is an emblem of truth an innocence.

Three distinct, seperate witnesses of the Godhead. God, the Father, Speaking. Jesus Christ, the Son, in the water, and The Holy Spirit, as witnessed descending.

There's the trinity. Seperate parts, one purpose: Our salvation. What's unbiblical about that?

Mormons teach that Jesus christ is the Son of God. Luke 1:35 "the Son of God."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten son."

John 3:17 "For God sent his Son..."

John 17:1 "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"

Understanding the true nature of God is very important, in fact it is so important that Jesus Christ taught in the great intercessory prayer;" This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

The most important thing that Joseph Smith did was to restore the True Nature of God the Father, because that is what this life is all about- getting to know our Heavenly Father personally, through Jesus Christ.

Are your scriptures different than mine? Do you not believe that God was the Father and that Jesus was the Son? Do you not believe that they are two seperate individuals? What did Stephen see when he was stoned?

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus Standing on the right hand of God, and said, "Behold I see the heavens opened, and ths Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Jesus was standing on the right hand of God. God had a hand. Jesus was standing on the right of it. Two distinct, separate people.

Now, a quick question for you Joel-Do you believe in Prophets? If God called Prophets anciently, in both the Old and New Testaments, is there a prophet on the earth today? Why or why not? Does the bible support your views?

Too many rabbit trails for a focused conversation, Dave. I do have a reasonable reply to your assertions, comments and questions, but I've learned that discussion online must be focused in order to be fruitful.

I do love healthy discussion, but I have been down this road with Mormons before. I will address a couple things, but I will address them only to tell you where I stand, so we can move on to the central issues.

I reject the notion that you have disproved my definition of "christian cult". Those who would have called the followers of Jesus "cultic" were not aware that He came as a fulfillment of the Jewish law and prophecies, not to abolish them. Their perception may have been that the first Christians were cultish, but they would have based those conclusions on incorrect information.

A Christian cult, however, is really a mathmatical exercise. It ADDS to the Bible, SUBTRACTS from the deity of Christ and MULTIPLIES the requirements for salvation. (cute, huh?)

In your question, "why the fuss?", its because any Gospel apart from the one preached in the Holy Bible is anathema, and leads people away from true salvation that is found in Christ. I could ask the same question of any Mormon. Why the fuss? Why not just accept all ways to God? (which I also reject)

Regarding the Trinity, the Bible teaches that God is one, demonstrated in three persons, all co-equal in the Godhead. We find the "plural unity" of God in the very beginning of Scripture, where we read "Let US make man in our own image". The Trinity is a fascinating subject, but suffice to say I have no problem reconciling God's reference to Jesus as His Son with Jesus' deity and portion in the Godhead. Moving right along...

There's more, but what you said about Joseph Smith is key. All of Mormonism stands or falls on the veracity of his visions, and indeed, his claims as a "prophet". I think we can agree that according to the Bible, a prophet is not a prophet if he ever speaks something that does not come true.

Jesus warned in Matthew 7:15 that false prophets would come and deceive even the elect. Here is the Biblical test for a prophet...

"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

- Deuteronomy 18:21-22

Clear enough, right?

The following prophecies are all taken from Mormon literature, referenced book and chapter.

Prophecy #1
"President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh � even fifty six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).

- This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.

So what are we to do with this prophet who speaks false prophecy?

Here's another...

Prophecy #2
"Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world." (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)

- This prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring.

I see no example of a Word from the Lord not coming to pass exactly as the Prophets spoke in the Old Testament. Can you point to one?

Here's another...

Prophecy #3
"I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished" (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).

- Joseph Smith made this prophecy in May 6, 1843. However, the United States Government did not redress any of the wrongs committed against the Mormons in Missouri, and now over 150 years later, the U.S. Government still stands.

And another...

Prophecy #4
"While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them � not even a grease spot." (Millennial Star, Vol. 22, p. 455. See also History of the Church (HC), vol. 6, p. 116, though when this prediction was incorporated into the official history, Mormon Church leaders decided to leave out the "grease spot" part.)

- The petition was not heard nor was protection granted (Deseret News, Vol. 1, p. 59). Yet, Congress was never broken up and continues to function to this day.

And another...

Prophecy #5
This prophecy is recorded in Doctrine & Covenants Section 111. The introduction to this prophecy, found at the beginning of Section 111 states:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusetts, August 6, 1836. HC 2:465-466. At this time the leaders of the [LDS] Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry.

1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.

2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.

3. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.

4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.

5. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them."

- No treasure was ever discovered, nor did Salem ever fell into the hands of the Mormons.

And another...
Prophecy #6

"And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled "(History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316).

- Such a widespread destruction of the wicked of that generation never occurred.

And at the risk of overkill, one more. Seven seems to be the number of God, so to speak, so I'll end there.

Prophecy #7
This prophecy comes directly from Doctrine & Covenants Section 84, the introduction of which states:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1:286-295.

1. A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."

- The Mormons were forced to flee Missouri due to persecution and a temple was never built on the "temple lot" in the lifetime of Joseph Smith or within the generation of his contemporaries.

Without even dealing with the contradictions and odd circumstances surrounding Smith's life and his supposed "first vision", it is apparant to me that these "prophecies" qualify him as a false prophet.

Incidentally, I think it fair to give you a bit of background about myself. I am of Jewish lineage and was not raised in a religious atmosphere. There was an unspoken hostility to Jesus Christ in my extended family, probably because many Jews were led to believe that the Christians were responsible for the slaughter of Jews over the years.

After a lengthy spiritual search, which took me through New Age, Scientology and other faiths, God got my attention in the fall of 1988, and I subsequently became a Christian. After exploring many "religions", I came to find that Biblical Christianity was the only faith that I could reconcile both logically and in my heart. Risking alienation by my Jewish family and friends, I took the only route I could. I would rather stand for God's truth and be rejected by men than vice versa.

Since that time, I have grown in my love for the Lord and am certain that my salvation is eternally secure. Knowing Christ and experiencing the forgiveness of all my sins has freed me up to serve God out of love and not requirement. He has been very good to me and my family. :-)

I am passionate about truth, and one of my spiritual gifts is indeed "prophecy". However, this is not defined as "one who predicts the future". Rather, it is a gift given to some in the Body of Christ that prompts them to speak God's truth forth.. thus, to prophecy. I would not presume to speak for God, except what He has already made known in His inerrant and unchangable Word, the Bible.

It's late... I must rest. Peace...

Joel,

In your response you said:

"Those who would have called the followers of Jesus "cultic" were not aware that He came as a fulfillment of the Jewish law and prophecies, not to abolish them. Their perception may have been that the first Christians were cultish, but they would have based those conclusions on incorrect information."

Hallelujah! You are obviously not aware that Joseph Smith fulfills biblical prophecy! The restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ, fulfills biblical prophecy! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, FULFILLS biblical prophecy. There is no other organization, religion, person, book, bible, whatever- that teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ in its entirety- except for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This isn't to say that other churches, religions, creeds, pastors, preachers, etc. are bad, but they simply don't have all the pieces of the TRUE chruch of Jesus Christ. Paul taught, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism." Ephesians 4:5.

There is only one God, only one Jesus, and only one true church, and this is it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is a RESTORATION of the original Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is at the head of his church, it bears his name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (to distinguish it from the church he formed in the Meridian of times.)

Joseph Smith was the prophet that Jesus Christ called to restore his church. FACT. Think what you may, but it is true. It matches biblical scriptures, and prophecy. Your attacks on Joseph Smith are an attack on Jesus Christ, and I am honored to testify to you of the divinity of his life, his teachings, and the church that he restored. I have studied his life, I have read his revelations, I have received a personal witness from Heavenly Father through the Holy Spirit, that Joseph Smith was, and is, a Prophet of God.

A witness of the spirit is more powerful than sight or sound, because once Heavenly Father has witnessed to your heart, there is no denying it. I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, just like I know that Jesus was the Christ, and that God lives.

Now, you say that Joseph Smith made some prophecies that didn't come true. That one unfulfilled prophecy makes him a false prophet.
You even went on to say "I see no example of a Word from the Lord not coming to pass exactly as the Prophets spoke in the Old Testament. Can you point to one?"

Yes Joel, I can. I'm glad you asked. Your standard for judging Joseph Smith's prophecies is just as damaging to a number of Bible prophecies, if not more so.

I will not be discussing any of the Prophet Joseph Smith's alleged "false prophecies," for two reasons: (1) He never uttered any false prophecies; and (2) before I will even enter into such a discussion, I first insist on examining some important rules about prophecy itself, and on asking anti-Mormons to justify their attacks on Joseph Smith in light of those prophecies in the Bible that plainly and clearly did not come to pass.

In discussing difficult Bible prophecies, it is not my intention to attack the Bible, nor to suggest that any of the biblical prophets were false prophets. Rather, it is to illustrate the fact that anyone who accepts the anti-Mormon standard for concluding that Joseph Smith uttered false prophecies must also conclude that several Bible prophets did the same thing.
It has been my experience that anti-LDS critics are willing to make every possible allowance and exception for difficult Bible prophecies, but none for those of Joseph Smith.

The Anti-Mormon Standard

Typically, anti-Mormons point to Deuteronomy 18:21-22 as their measuring rod for branding as "false" a number of Joseph Smith's prophecies. Here is how these verses read in the Revised Standard Version (RSV):

And if you say in your heart, "How may we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?"--when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.

Using a strictly literal interpretation of these verses as their guide, most if not all anti-Mormons insist that if a prophecy does not come to pass, it is automatically false, period.

These critics don't seem to realize they are stepping into quicksand when they use this criterion to attack Joseph Smith. The issue of prophecy is extremely complex. It is by no means as simple as a strictly literal understanding of Deuteronomy 18:21-22. The rigid anti-Mormon interpretation of these verses invalidates several Bible prophecies as much as it does some of Joseph Smith's prophecies. In fact, atheistic critics have used this same sort of approach to attack several prophecies in the Bible.

Rules on Prophecy

However, after studying prophecy for several years, I have deduced certain rules which, when taken into account, enable us to explain the difficult prophecies uttered by certain Bible prophets and by Joseph Smith. I will now list these rules. Most of them are intertwined to varying degrees.

1. Almost all prophecy is conditional to one degree or another, even if this is not stated in the prophecy itself (which is often the case).

2. In many cases human actions and choices can alter, postpone, or prevent the fulfillment of prophecy.

3. A prophecy is not always telling us what will happen, but what could happen under certain circumstances.

4. A prophet can misinterpret the timetable for a prophecy's fulfillment (this, of course, does not invalidate the prophecy itself).

5. A prophet can be mistaken about certain details of a prophecy but correct with regard to its central message.

6. A prophecy can apply to more than one occurrence or time period, i.e., it can have dual application.

7. A prophecy's fulfillment can be intended to take place in the spirit world or during the millennium, even if this is not stated in the prophecy itself.

8. The fulfillment of prophecy can go unobserved and/or unrecorded.

9. A prophecy can contain rhetorical overstatements. For example, a prophecy might read that "every single house" in a certain town will be "leveled to the ground," when what is really meant is that the town will suffer heavy destruction.

10. Such terms and expressions as "soon," "quickly," "in a little while," "shortly," etc., are often given from the Lord's perspective of time--so that "soon," for example, might turn out to be a very long time by our reckoning.

11. The text of a prophecy can undergo alteration to the point that it no longer reflects the original intent of the prophecy.
Therefore, just because a prophecy goes partially or totally unfulfilled does not mean it is false. Anyone who would deny this must explain those prophecies in the Bible which did not come to pass.

Difficult Bible Prophecies

Let us now examine three difficult Bible prophecies that would have to be rejected as false if we were to insist on judging them solely on the basis of a strictly literal reading of Deuteronomy 18:21-22.

In 2 Samuel 7:5-17, we read that the prophet Nathan unequivocally prophesied to David that through his son Solomon the Davidic empire would be established "forever," that the children of Israel would dwell in the promised land "and move no more," and that the "children of wickedness" would no longer afflict them. These things are quite clearly stated. No conditions are attached to these promises, none whatsoever.

That Nathan was predicting the permanent establishment of the temporal kingdom of David has even been acknowledged (albeit somewhat obliquely) by R. K. Harrison, a fine conservative Bible scholar:

The Davidic dynasty was confidently expected to usher in a new era of Israelite life of an enduring quality (2 Sam. 7:5ff), because it was firmly rooted in loyalty to the God of the Covenant. (1969:410, emphasis added.)

Robert Jamieson, Andrew Faucet, and David Brown concede that the promise of "the throne of his kingdom" being established "forever" (vs. 13) refers "in its primary application, to Solomon, and to the temporal kingdom of David's family" (587). The promise is reiterated in verse 16:

"thine [David's] house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever."

In short, as Robert H. Pfeiffer has stated, "... the point of II Samuel 7 is the eternity of this [the Davidic] dynasty" (370). It was because of the supposed permanence of the Davidic empire that the children of Israel would be able to remain in the promised land "and move no more" (vs. 10).

And, as for the assurance that the Israelites would no longer be afflicted by "the children of wickedness" (vs. 10), the New International Version phrases it this way: "Wicked people will not oppress them anymore." But, of course, what actually happened to the Davidic empire and to the children of Israel?

The Davidic dynasty was later smashed. The Israelites were driven and scattered from the promised land. And "wicked people" certainly continued to afflict and oppress them.

The second difficult Bible prophecy we will consider is one which is attributed to the Savior Himself. It is found in Matthew 10:23, wherein Jesus is represented as very matter-of-factly stating that His second coming would occur before the disciples returned from the mission on which He was then sending them. This, of course, did not happen. The verse reads as follows in the RSV:

"When they persecute you [the disciples] in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say unto you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes."

Howard Clark Kee has said the following about this verse:

"One of the most problematic sayings in the whole Synoptic tradition [i.e., Matthew, Mark, and Luke] is this explicit statement that the disciples will not have completed their mission tour before the Son of man comes, i.e., before the age ends and the kingdom of God arrives in its fullness. (In Laymon 622)"

Says T. F. Glasson, "Thus, before the disciples return Jesus expects to be caught up to heaven and to come down in glory" (57).

This verse is so problematic that many scholars have questioned its authenticity. Glasson notes that there is "widespread doubt concerning the genuineness of Matthew 10:23. . . ." (59).

The third difficult Bible prophecy we will consider is Judges 13:5, where it is recounted that an angel promised Samson's mother that Samson would "begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."

No matter how liberal or expansive one wants to be with the facts of Israelite history (as recorded in the Bible or elsewhere), there is no way it can reasonably be concluded that Samson fulfilled this prophecy.

Not only did Samson fail to even "begin" to free Israel from the Philistines, but (1) there were times when he consorted with Philistine women, (2) he married a Philistine, (3) he himself never even led any Israelite troops against the Philistines, and (4) the Philistines eventually humiliated him. Moreover, and most importantly, Israel actually lost ground to the Philistines during Samson's tenure. Judges 13-16 illustrates Philistine encroachment into Hebrew territory. The Samson narrative documents the eastward expansion of the Philistines by mentioning the Philistine presence in Timnah and Lehi, both in the strategic valley of Sorek (Achtemeier 1985:787-791). This Philistine expansion worsened the land shortage that eventually forced the Danites to migrate northward.
Of course, the nonfulfillment of Judges 13:5 can be attributed to Samson's failure to live according to his Nazirite calling. In addition to his sexual liaisons, he married a Philistine, ate unclean food, drank wine, and allowed his hair to be cut.

Therefore, it could be said that the angel's prophecy was nullified by Samson's behavior. However, the angel placed absolutely no conditions on his promise that Samson would begin to deliver Israel from the Philistines. He simply declared that Samson would do so.

Conclusion

The three Bible prophecies discussed above are certainly "difficult," to put it mildly. However, they can be explained, if one is willing to accept the rules on prophecy presented herein.

The exact same thing can be said about Joseph Smith's alleged "false prophecies." Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and he never uttered a single false prophecy.

Next question for you Joel, you say that you know Christ, and that you have received a foregiveness of your sins. I have no doubt that you honor and respect Jesus Christ, but how exactly did you receive a "foregiveness of your sins?"

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential for salvation. The ancient Christians and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints taught, and teach the same thing.

Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins. It is essential for salvation.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," said Jesus (Mark 16:16).

Also, John 3:5 "Except a Man be born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What Say Ye?

I wish the answer were your own David. Nice cut and paste job, though. I do agree with some of the rules of prophecy, but not all of them. This much I KNOW to be true...

"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

- Deuteronomy 18:21-22

I think you have attempted to wriggle out of Smith's FALSE prophecies by pointing out some difficult prophecies in the Scripture. IF there are indeed some difficult prophecies in Scripture, it does not excuse Smith from his obviously untrue prophecies. However, for the sake of keeping a focused discussion, I refuse to enter rabbit trail discussions about Baptism or any other topic. Instead, we'll deal with the supposed "difficult" prophecies, which I don't find difficult at all.

I am certain R. K. Harrison is a learned Bible scholar, but MANY scholars disagree with him. It can be easily established that the covenant made with David refers to three promises.

1) The house of David will always be the royal line (and Christ came from the house of David) - true

2) that the right to rule will always belong to David's offspring (Christ, again..) - true

3) the right to a literal, earthly Kingdom will never be taken from David's posterity. NOTE, this does NOT the guarantee that the rule would be uninterupted, but the prerogative to exercise the privilege of ruling would always belong to the Davidic dynasty.

The ultimate fulfillment of this promise will be realized when Christ comes again and rules among His people.

Next difficult passage is Christ's Word ins Matthew 10:23, "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Would you not agree that God's perspective on time and ours differ greatly? The way that Christ presents imminent events , which may be longer in time, is consistent with the old testament prophets. One writer suggests "it is like looking at two mountain ranges, not viewing the large valley between them. The church age is a valley between the first and second comings of Christ. It was a mystery hidden in God and not revealed in the Old Testament" I believe this is in line with your rule #10 of prophecy.

Difficult? Yes. But a deal-killer? Hardly. There is more than enough mystery in the things of God to strain at this gnat. Since we don't KNOW for sure, or even a little, that this is false, we have to assume that "God�breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" - 2 Tim 3:16

By the way, there are MANY difficult passages in Scripture. But it is incorrect to build a theology around difficult passages. A belief system should formed around that which the Bible consistently teaches, in spite of our limited understanding of passages which are not as obvious.

Regarding Samson:

1) Samson DID begin to deliver Israel. His act of faith of praying to God and pulling down the walls on his enemies killed more Philistines than ever before, many of them in the ruling class.

2) For some reason, you list all Samson's character faults. So what? Matthew was a tax collector. Jesus caught a woman in adultery. Nebuchednezzar was murderous. All of these turned from their ways. God's promises and workings are NOT dependant on our character. It is our very character flaws that demand the need for our salvation, and there is not one born who does not have this need, present company included.

Again, the author of your piece strains at a gnat, selecting obscure Scriptures with questionable meanings at best, to attempt to support Joseph Smith's false prophecies.

Now, I have dealt with the three "difficult" prophecies. What I would like to see is your answer to the seven "difficult" prophecies of Joseph Smith.

WOW! That was a great little dance you did there Joel. You didn't step on one of those hot coals (topics). Reverting back to attacks and avoiding the cold hard facts is very "democratic". You would make a great John Kerryite or better yet Clintonite.

Um... who the heck is "Mike"? This is the first time "Mike" has posted on this thread, so I have no idea what he is talking about.

Mormonism is a cult! You believe in Jesus, but you also believe that every individual man and woman has the potential for being "a god" like him! You idiots, don't you realize that YOU WERE CREATED BY HIM!! In the begining was THE WORD (Jesus), and Jesus, God Made Man, was THE WORD MADE FLESH. He is a person of the ONE TRUE GOD. Your belief that there can be other gods (men and women who reach that potential) IS NOT A CHRISTIAN BELIEF. Be a mormon if you wish, but stop calling yourself Christians!!!

I don't accept any of the "truth" you have to present to me. The ONLY truth that we can be absolutely certain of is that which comes from God himself. We are all imperfect men; liars and sinfull by nature. You can't be any more "truthful" than God, can you? I will trust what God tells me, and one day we will all know the truth. This includes even the almighty "truthmeister". You will someday be humbled when you REALLY have the truth, not your self-gratifying, arrogant views that you refer to as the truth. Your "truth" cannot set anyone free. Only truth from above. By the way, leave Mormons alone! Most of them that I know seem to be humble, good people. Moreover, since most of them do not go out of their way to bash other religions, maybe they stand a better chance than most to enter into Heaven. Remember this: Thou shalt not judge, lest ye be judged."

First of all, what are you ingesting?.. You're quoting statements about 'truth' when the word truth is not even in my post. However, belief is more along the lines that I was talking. I don't care what you think the "truth" is, but I KNOW what the CHRISTIAN BELIEF is about God, and one thing I know for sure is that no CHRISTIAN believes that he or she will ever be 'a god.' We were created by God---- Genesis 2:
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being...

Sure we are imperfect men--NEVER TO BE gods--and that is indeed why we needed GOD to come down to this earth and shed his blood for us. We are not perfect, we are forgiven.

I am not 'more truthful than God' But I know that as a CHRISTIAN, God has given us the 'truth' that we need in this world to get us to the next.

I don't wish to cause trouble to Mormons, but they should not call themselves Christians. Sure there are good and just Mormons as well as good and just members of most any religion you can name.

Matthew Chapter 7
1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.

2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?

4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye...

This is one of the most misunderstood and misused statements of Jesus. This statement is not telling us not to judge at all, it is just warning that WE TOO shall be judged and that if one judges harshly one may find oneself to be judged in the same way. But it does not mean that one shall not judge. When your children come to you and ask you if they can hang out with the known Drug-user or thief or gangster--make sure you remember that you should not JUDGE. Also, make sure you never praise any person as being good, and take back those comments that you made about the MORMONS that you know because that after all is a judgement and Jesus doesn't want us to judge ANYTHING (being sarcastic incase you didn't know).

As an Insider I have to say that I too am worried about Glenn and his Mormonism slowly ruining the show. That, and that he was sucked into a truly ridiculous cult. Come on, God was a man, man can become a god complete with his own planet? God lives on or near a star or planet named Kolob?
Hogwash, dangerous hogwash. I started reading the BoM once and all my bullcrap detectors went off.
Sad, it's really sad that an otherwise intelligent man would fall for this crap.

Hi everyone,
Mormonism is no cult. Anyone who has throughly studied our doctrine will come to see the truth, an all encompassing answer to the many questions many people have. For every "point" brought up by the people against Mormonism there is an answer. They obviously have not searched enough to have found it. If they had sincerely looked for, and prayed for the answers they would have recieved a witness. I know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, it is the only church with the full truth beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Well, tell you what. There is nothing in the bible that supports polytheism. There is only one god---GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT--Three persons in one god. It's just fine if you want to be a mormon, but what I think most christians have a problem with is the fact that you call yourself Christians.

Hello, first time here and wanted to say hi

Joel, it's so sad that you're so full of contempt. How wonderful if you could be like the man in the following article, but I don't think you could be Christian enough:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/002/7.66.html

Does anyone know how Glenn came to the mormon faith? Did someone in his life tell him, was it missionaries, his wife what?

I respect mormons, they are conservative, family oriented, intellegent, and benevolent. It breaks my heart though, because do think the religion is false. I too had difficulty understanding Glenn's lack of critical analysis regarding the mormon church. but i accept him as the awesome talk show host, and influence that he is, and i appreciate his cander and style. in my opinion, he is the best that there is on the radio.

I just found out Glenn is Mormon and it just crushed me!!! It kills me to see people I actually respect falling for this cult. Dude, just the idea that a man can become a god with his own planet, that our God was once a man on a distant planet.....that is so much nonsense, and something that mormons won't tell you outright. WHat did happen to our mormon poster? Didn't see him respond to all that nonsensical garbage and blasphemy against our creator, the Lord Almighty who was NEVER a MAN on any planet. He has always been and always will be. That's what makes him God!!!

I just looked back at the posts....yep, our mormon friend really did do a disappearing dance when the truth kept being presented. The cross is foolishness to the perishing.....but to the saved it is the power of God.

This is one of the best blogs that I have ever read!

I just returned from a church meeting in which Mr. Beck spoke about his conversion to the LDS religion. To hear you say that he gave no critical thought to his decision to join the church is truly rediculous. He was looking for something that was right for him and his family and was very weary of even visiting the church.
Once he visited, he wanted to leave. However, he and his family felt that this was the way for them.
I do not know why you are all so concerned that someone finds something that truly makes them happy and a better person.
I do not intend to convince you that the church is true, only the spirit of God could ever truly do that. For Mr. Beck, for me, and many others around the country, the church is true and brings us immeasurable happiness and joy. I would hope that you would be happy for him rather than criticize him.

Ryan,

I am sure Mr. Beck's testimony was very inspiring. However, I am certain that he did not cast a critical eye on the doctrine of the LDS church. It is so incredibly UN-Christian, it is difficult to believe that people fall for it so easily. The doctrines and beliefs of the Mormon church simply do not line up the Holy Bible. There are more contradictions and outright distortions than one can possibly imagine. I have met very few Mormons who are willing to look at these issues closely, as the church leadership discourages them from doing so. That is one glaring sign of a cult. A religion is not true because it makes you feel good. It is only true if it is the TRUTH. Truth is not relative. It is absolute. I am happy for Mr. Beck's success as a radio personality and hope he one day applies the same critical thinking to his belief in God.

This page is an EXCELLENT starting place to debunking the cult of LDS.

http://www.irr.org/mit/biblepage.html

I have to say that most of this back and forth banter is really a shame. People who criticize another's religion are really sad. It is no one persons job here to judge another for their beliefs. Joel, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and one should be glad that you so ardently care about your fellow man's salvation. However, you are only human, so obviously as all humans, you have flaws. We all do. Do you think that just because there is proof of some idea here on earth that it makes it true? I have to tell you that is not correct. The bible was written by man, and therefore, it is prone to flaws. It is apparent that you are quite an intellectual, but there is only so much to TRUTH in this world. If you are only basing your life to that which you can see or feel, I believe you are sadly missing the point. This time on earth is for a reason. It is a test of your FAITH, among other things. If we all had the truth laid out for us, choosing the right wouldn't be so hard then would it? You should not look down at your fellow man for what he or she believes in ESPECIALLY when I really don't feel that it affects the way you sleep at night. SERVICE, LOVE FOR YOUR FELLOW MAN, LOVE FOR HEAVENLY FATHER AND HIS BEGOTTEN SON JESUS CHRIST. What is the big deal Joel? Why is it that you must INSIST that we are wrong and obviously YOU have supreme knowledge and are right? No one will know EXACTLY the truth until we pass on, and as for me, and I'm sure for other Mormons out there I believe in the truthfulness of the Gospel. If LOVE is blind, than maybe I'm blindfolded, however I am the happiest now as a member of the church, than I have ever been in my life. I would rather be deaf, blind and dumb, but still be able to FEEL the spirit of TRUTH, than to be surrounded by all of the books and knowledge in the world, and truly not be able to discern or FEEL the truthfulness of it. I try everyday to be a servant of the Lord, to try to better MYSELF, and to live like HE did. We are Christians, we Love and believe in Christ our Savior. We are saved because of His atoning sacrifice, not because we love service, but because He was his Father's servant. As far as becoming God's and Goddesses how do you know that it is not true? Im sorry but your opposition to something does not erase any possibility of this. I still dont know why people choose not to have faith. Yes, it is a choice. Well, as for me I feel good when I lay my head down at night, even if there is the smallest chance that there is no truth to anything. I could die right now, and know that I was a faithful servant, and that I led a good life. What harm is there to that? Even if it is in ignorance? Do you think God holds people accountable for not having the proper knowledge? NO, of course he doesnt, he loves all of his children no matter what they do. And I think that he weeps when there is contention in our lives instead of LOVE for one another. I think that maybe if you put HALF as much time into serving others, and doing good things(which does not include religion bashing nomatter HOW much you think you are helping someone, really your just pushing them away from you) You must LOVE in order for others to feel the truth. If you cannot do that, than you are the one who walks without his light, and you will have to walk in darkness until that principle is learned. But just a sidenote, THAT alone does not make you a bad person, or sentence you to Hell or anything stupid like that. You will just have to wait and finally see the truth with all the rest who have no faith. God knows the intentions of your heart. He knows who you are, like no one else can. He knows even the number of hairs on your head. He knows you better than you know yourself because you are His child. So only he can have ultimate judgement on you or any of us. So please stop bashing Mormons just because it is not what you will accept. What is right will always be right, whether or not the world will accept it. And again you are entitled to your opinion, but it is still not nice to be nasty! :)

Amber,

Your sentiments are quite nice and your heart is obviously in the right place. But I can sum up my reasons by a brief parable followed by a simple question.

You went shopping for a new car and decided to buy the luxury vehicle. It is a beautiful automobile with everything you ever wanted in a car. You LOVE the feel of it, and it looks nice too! Your friends drive a similar car and they enjoy theirs also. You feel like you fit right in. She's a beauty!

What if I could tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that your car was built with faulty parts and that it would eventually EXPLODE while you were driving it? Would you still want that car?

Mormonism is not based in truth. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Feelings change like the wind. One day we feel good. Another day we feel bad. In fact, our feelings frequently LIE to us in order to protect us. However, we must base important decisions in our lives on much more than our feelings. We must seek out truth and pursue it with a zeal.

Yes, you could die right now and think you would be happy. However, according to the Bible, that is not the truth.

You can go on thousands of years of history (and I suggest truly researching it in order to deal with your questions of whether or not it is verifiable truth), or you can go on the word of a proven liar (Joseph Smith) who has sold you and millions of others a pack of lies. Some people prefer to feel good and ignore the warnings, comfortable in their self-deceit. Others accept the challenge and are willing to accept the consequences of what they discover, regardless of how it makes them feel.

Which will you be?

Don't take my criticism as anti-Mormon. I am pro-people, and I care about your final destination.

Wow! Look at all the comments on Mormonism!
Well, I'm not here to prattle on about hair-splitting theology and post Bible verses to back up my arguments. (Seems that folks who love to argue via Bible verses never stop to consider that the Bible itself wasn't really compiled until a bunch of White Guys got together at Emporer Contantine's Council of Nicea about 600 years after the fact, and decided based on thier personal bias what to put in and what to leave out... but, I digress. )
Personally, my B.S. filters turn on every time any group or "ism" claims have the market cornered on the truth -- be it Christian fundamentalism, Atheism, Liberalism, Conservativism or even Moonie-ism.
I lived in really heavy Mormon country about four hours from Salt Lake City for years, and have to say they're pretty nice folk, just a little uptight.
Buy again, I digress.
On to Glenn Beck.
I've listened to his show quite a bit. And I hate to sound mean... but the guy strikes me as just plain stupid.
No, I'm not saying "ignorant" (he's that too, as well as grossly misinformed on many things he prattles on about.) Because very intelligent people can still be ignorant.
No, I'm talking just plain, old-fashioned, garden-variety, not-very-smart, just plain stupid.
He reminds me of those guys you would meet at a party in college, who was trying just way, way too hard to impress you.. when really, he was just too stupid and everybody wanted him to go away.
Personally, I think the reason Rush Limbaugh and all who rode in on his coat-tails (of which Glenn Beck is one) do so well is the same reason Michael Moore's films do so well.
People who are intellectualy lazy like to be told what they want to hear. So, die-hard conservatives will tune into Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh to be told what they want to hear, and die-hard lefties will go see Michael Moore's movies and not question anything they see on the screen.
Me, I like to get my information from print media, because it's usually done by true professionals who actaully go out into the field and research what they are talking about. It's not just all bells and whistles and B.S.�which is what you tend to get in broadcast media. For good, solid print journalism that leans to the left, I'd recommend the Atlantic Monthly. To balance that out with right-leaning print, try the National Review or American Spectator.
If you want mindless entertainment, go ahead and listen to talk radio or watch Moore's "documentaries."
But please, don't kid yourself into thinking you're getting anything remotely resembling well-researched, logically sound, objectivly factual information from such sources.

As Joel said and I quote: "But the fact that he gave it 'thought' and still ended up in the Mormon church is incredibly confusing. Mormonism is NOT a religion based on thought. It is based mostly on feeling and self-supporting statements." Critical thought leads more people out of the Mormon church than vice-versa. This is what puzzles me so. The Mormon cult is a house of cards that my 11-year old can see through."
Critical thought is what caused churches to mushroom all over the place--while declaring their monopoly on the word "Christian" yet disagreeing with all others. I suggest the following: (1) Go to the source with a sincere heart, devoid of any bias; (2) Given all the teachings the Savior left us, why don't you stop tearing others down and just preach Christ because, sincerely you do *NOT* prove yourself right by telling everyone they are wrong; (3) If you have a lot of time on your hands, why not put yourself out there and profer up something body of doctrine that you believe in so that all the other folks out there can tear it down... it's always easier to tear other's down than putting yourself and your beliefs out there; and (4) and lastly, answer me this: Is GB closer to living a life which more closley resembles that of the Savior because he is a Mormon as opposed to the life he lived before? Here is some critical thought for you... I think the answer is "Yes." P.S. Your "critical thought" and claims of lacking "archeological proof" is only as good until someone smarter or some archeological prrof in support of something comes along. If you feel the need to preach something in the name of your self-proclaimed altruism, just ask yourself if you have to tear someone down first. If the answer is "yes" then quit and preach something else. Great blog though inspite of the religion mongering. PPS Oh, and if I or anyone else doesn't respond to you or anyone else of your ilk, then don't flatter yourselves by saying that you have figuratively run the monster out of town with your sophistry. Sometimes, sensible people will acknowledge the futility of an activity and move on.

I was looking up information on Glen Beck and came across this website and thought it was funny. Everyone believes they have the “inside scoop” or theirs is the “informed opinion” and everyone else is blind. I find it humorous when people write things like “even my 11 year old can see the holes in Mormonism.” That must be one amazing 11 year old because there are some pretty thoughtful people who have been “blinded” by Mormonism. Harry Reid, Mitt Romney, the Marriott family (of the hotel chain), the founder and owner of Jet Blue, Dell Computers, the CEO of Black and Decker, not to mention many in the top management at Goldman Sachs and Citibank. There is no use in getting defensive. Everyone has the right to believe what they want. Much of the time that is spent tearing down religion could be spent doing good or figuring out some economic regression model (my field of study). I have had an opportunity of studying most religions and have done so by asking practicing members of each particular faith. I have also read many books written by practicing members of faiths, ex-members, and non-members. I can honestly say that the practicing members understand their religion better than those on the outside. When reading someone’s opinion about a particular subject, in this case religion, I would suggest always asking ones self what the author stands to gain from stating their opinion. You will find that many times people are misinformed or have been offended or have some other ulterior motive. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t continue to search and study, what it does mean is that you need to be broad and unbiased in your approach. Take me for example, what is my ulterior motive? Mostly I think discussion adds light to subjects. The “marketplace of ideas” is one of the greatest rights we have as Americans. With regard to Mormonism, I have read almost every argument against it there is. You may think that is impossible. In truth, most arguments are the same and have the same original source. Individuals are too lazy to check source so they just copy and paste there “research.” I have found answers to every so called “hole” about Mormonism. Most arguments come down to opinions. So and so thinks such and such because he heard this about Mormons, or Jews or Protestants. I think there is a piece of paper somewhere that talks about religious freedom. Yes, you may disagree, and it’s great that you have the right to do so. But before you start projecting your understanding about Mormons or Jews or whatever when you meet someone, it may be a good to get to know the person first. After all, life is short. If you want to convince a member of another faith that they are wrong, perhaps you can do so through living YOUR religion. Actions often speak louder than words, and are probably more telling of truth than words. Finally, I think most of us agree that God doesn’t change I think most of us agree that we are children of God. If God doesn’t change and we are his children, and He wants us to get back to Him, why would he have so many different beliefs about Him? Perhaps the best person to ask is God? Imagine that, God answering prayers. Anyway, find the truth for yourself and try not to be too persuaded by opinions. Oh, and if you have questions about Mormonism (because I have asked them all) send me an email. Just write on this site that you would like it and I will send it to you personally.

I love Glenn!! I just wanted to know....Do these "slugs" that call in to Glenn's show on Valentines Day, ever get busted? Does anyone show up to the restaurant or call the "slugs'" place of employment and rat them out? I would love to hear the "rest of the story" if anyone knows.

Sam, what is your e-mail address?

Article of Faith #11 of the Mormon Church: "We claim the privilege of worshiping God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where, or what they may." This is why the Mormons (as a Church and general organization) have never published any material that tears down any other religion. There's no "Find out the Truth about Lutherans" or "Do Catholics Believe in another Jesus Christ?" that bears the name of the Mormon Church. Because these other churches contain our Christian brothers and sisters. Why would I want to treat my brothers and sisters with anything other than respect and love? Feel free to e-mail me, since I rarely check this site; jansonkemp@hotmail.com.

I love Glenn Beck, and I also love the Mormon Church. And yes I am a member. I don't see why others try to tear us down when our church has done nothing but good for the entire world. How could one not admire President Hinkley? One day people will know the truth. That there is and can only be one true church of Jesus Christ, and one that bears his name. I hope that other people that read this blog will not be turned off by the negative comments posted by others regarding the lds church. I know that this will sound crazy and I don't know how to describe what I have felt so many times, but I know that Josesph Smith was a prophet of God and that this church really is the only true church. I don't know how to express to other people the burning in my heart that I have felt so many times. Why do tears come to my eyes when I see kids all over the world singing to President Hinkley "We thank thee oh God for a Prophet"? Why do tears come to my eyes when I see all the good that the Mormon church does for people all over the world? Or when I hear the hymn "How Great Thou Art"? Or how come my heart burns when I hear the hymn "Oh How Lovely Was the Morning"? I think that the rest of the world would just say that I am stupid and brain-washed. But, I think that when I feel my heart is just overwhelmed with love and peace it really is the Holy Ghost testifying to me that this church is true. I know it probably sounds stupid. But, I can't deny it. I have been testified to many times. The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is true. Thanks... P.S I do not want to argue with anyone. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

The mormon scriptures are all tied together, everything makes sense. I have thought about the mormon faith quite a bit and I have frequently questioned it. However, their are some key doctrines about the last days that the Mormon church provides for that no other church does. The Old Testament says that in the last days while Israel is being invaded by Gog in the battle of armageddan, two prophets(mormon apostales are the only organized religion to have prophets) will defend jeruselem and kill the enemy with large hale and after awhile be killed. Hmmmmm, catholics don't have prophets, they aren't the true religion, no protestant faith that I know of has a prophet, none of them can be right either. Not only that but mormon "prophecies" have been fulfilled a number of times, the one the comes first to my mind is in The Doctrine in Covenents and it was revealed in the 1830's and it was revealed to the prophet joseph that the american civil war would begin in south carolina, and it did. The list could go on, but that will do for now.

LOST BOOKS AND LATTER-DAY REVELATION:
A Response to Mormon Views of the New Testament Canon

by Luke P. Wilson

Summary

The Mormon church offers four reasons for rejecting the historic Christian position that the 27 New Testament books are the final installment of divine revelation. It claims that some of Jesus� teachings were never recorded because of their sacred nature and have been lost; that soon after the time of the apostles, apostates removed some books or parts of books from the original New Testament writings; that other inspired books were rejected in the canonization process; and finally, that God continues to give new revelation through latter-day prophets. However, the New Testament itself refutes the notion of secret teachings of Jesus, and Mormons are unable to cite any credible evidence of lost or rejected Scripture. The claim of a universal apostasy in the early church defies logic, history, and the Bible, and the claim of "restored truth" from "latter-day prophets" clashes with the unique office and teaching of Jesus� handpicked apostles.

Most differences between the Mormon faith and historic Christianity originate in disagreements over the nature and extent of revelation from God. This includes disagreement on the question of whether the authority of the Bible is unique and final. It is a basic tenet of Christian orthodoxy that the Bible is complete and the canon of Scripture is closed.

By contrast, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon church) believes in an "open canon" � that is, that God is continuing to reveal new truth beyond what is contained in the Bible that is at least equal in authority to the Bible. Indeed, latter-day revelation is said to be of greater importance than the Bible. In the words of Henry D. Moyle, first counselor to former Mormon President David O. McKay: "The greatest of all scripture which we have in the world today is current scripture. What the mouthpiece of God says to his children is scripture."1

This article examines four arguments the Mormon church uses in rejecting the historic Christian position that the 27 New Testament books, along with the 39 books of the Old Testament, are the final and complete revelation of God: (1) some of Jesus� teachings were never recorded and have been lost, (2) sometime after the death of Jesus� apostles, apostate Christians removed some books or parts of books from the original New Testament writings, (3) some inspired books were rejected in the canonization process, and (4) God continues to give new revelation through latter-day prophets.

LOST TEACHINGS OF JESUS

The first Mormon argument against the final authority of the New Testament is the claim that some of Jesus� teachings were intentionally never recorded because of their sacred nature. These teachings are said to have been lost soon after the time of the apostles. According to Hugh Nibley of the Mormon church�s Brigham Young University (BYU), Peter, James, and John were an inner circle of the Twelve apostles, to whom Jesus imparted secret revelation. Nibley interprets the story of these three accompanying Jesus to the mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-9; see also Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36, 2 Pet. 1:16-18) as an occasion when they received secret teaching.2

The biblical text simply offers no tangible support for this fanciful speculation, but instead implicitly undermines it. The three disciples are told only to keep the experience confidential temporarily: "As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead" (Matt. 17:9 KJV, emphasis added; the King James Version is used in this article because it is the translation preferred by Mormons). Since this incident is described in four different New Testament books, three of which were penned by nonparticipants (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), Peter, James, and John obviously shared their experience with others in the early Christian community.

Furthermore, Nibley�s notion of secret revelation is contradicted by Christ�s own declaration to the contrary. When questioned under oath3 before the Sanhedrin about His disciples and doctrine, Jesus testified: "I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. Why askest thou me? Ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said" (John 18:20-21, emphasis added; see also Matt. 10:27). Thus, on the basis of Jesus� own unequivocal testimony, the idea of secret teachings must be rejected.

Granted, John wrote, "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book" (John 20:30). Yet he continued, "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (v.31). Certainly nothing essential is lacking from the canonical books of the New Testament.

WERE THE NEW TESTAMENT WRITINGS SABOTAGED?

A second Mormon argument against the finality of the New Testament is based on the Book of Mormon teaching (in 1 Nephi 13:26-28) that the Bible was tampered with at some point in the early Christian centuries, and that "many plain and precious parts" were deliberately removed. According to Mormon scholars this passage does not mean that the text of the New Testament has been corrupted or mistranslated, but that entire books or parts of books were removed from the original writings of the apostles.4 In the words of Robert J. Matthews, dean of religious education and professor of ancient scripture at BYU: "The Bible has apparently suffered mostly from omissions � it is not particularly erroneous, but many important items are missing, and this in turn leaves some parts unclear."5

While 1 Nephi 13 blames the alleged sabotage of the apostolic writings on apostates, the Mormon church has been unable to provide a credible explanation of when and how this took place. For years the standard Mormon position was the view espoused by apostle James E. Talmage, that it took place in the fourth century.6 But by this time the writings of the apostles had been copied and widely circulated for several centuries � as well as cited and translated in numerous other documents, such as early sermons � so we would expect to find vestiges of the excised material among the dozens of surviving New Testament manuscripts from before the fourth century, some dating from as early as the second or even first century. In fact, Mormon scholars are unable to cite any evidence whatever of an early New Testament textual tradition supportive of the distinctive doctrines of the Mormon religion.

Because of the insurmountable problem posed by this absence of textual evidence for missing portions of New Testament books, contemporary Mormon scholars now propose a different theory: at a very early date � Hugh Nibley has suggested a time frame of A.D. 70-807 � the original New Testament documents (autographs) were sabotaged by apostates before copies were made and began to circulate. Robert J. Matthews, representative of those who hold this view, writes: "In order for an alteration to have widespread effect, the text would have to be tampered with early enough that multiple copies were not already extant. In other words, the alteration had to be early and by a person or persons having access to very early records and first-generation copies" (emphases added).8

The implications of this very early dating for the subversion of the New Testament Scriptures are incredible. It requires us to believe that the spiritual condition of the Christian community and its leadership in the very shadow of the apostles was so bankrupt that major extractions could be made from their writings, undetected or unchallenged. At such an early date many, if not most, of the church�s leaders would have been men who were converted, trained, and appointed to leadership under the apostles themselves. One can only label such a radical view of events an "instant apostasy."

Is this hypothesis at all plausible? A survey of the biblical and historical evidence shows that there are no grounds for such an instant apostasy. Instead, the overwhelming weight of evidence is against such a view on at least six counts:

(1) Christ promised that His church would never fall into total apostasy: "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). According to Mormon teaching, the Christian church, though established and nurtured by Christ Himself and His hand-picked apostles, fell into total apostasy almost immediately. How interesting, then, that the Mormon church�s major instructional manual, Gospel Principles, assures us that such a fate can never befall the "restored" latter-day church: "The Lord will never allow the president of the [Mormon] church to teach us false doctrine."9 This assertion raises an obvious question: If God is now able to guarantee the perpetual integrity of this "restored church" by protecting its spiritual leaders from error, why did He not do so in the first century?

(2) The New Testament nowhere predicts a total apostasy. An article in the March 1991 issue of the Mormon church�s flagship publication, Ensign, cited 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as a biblical prediction of such an apostasy.10 The verse reads: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

This verse and its context (1:7-2:12) describe apostasy in terms of end-time events, especially the coming of the Antichrist, and there is no indication that it will be universal. While Paul states that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (2:7), he clearly does not support the Mormon view of a total apostasy 1,900 years ago, at the beginning of the Christian era. He goes on to say that "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" (2:7), or, as a modern English version puts it, "the one who now holds it [the mystery of iniquity] back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way" (New International Version). The old English meaning of "let" has the idea of holding back. In other words, the early church enjoyed a restraint on false teaching.

Mormon apostle James E. Talmage cited five additional New Testament passages as predictions of universal apostasy.11 Upon examination one finds that none of the passages predict a universal apostasy that extinguishes the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ (requiring a complete restoration at a later date).

� Matthew 24:4-5,10-13 says that "many" will be deceived and that "the love of many shall wax cold." Many, but not all. It is clear that the text (which again focuses on end times) does not have in view a total apostasy, for verse 13 concludes, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

� Acts 20:30 records the Apostle Paul�s warning to the elders of the Ephesian church that grievous wolves will "draw away disciples after them." But nothing in the text supports the view that the faith of all the saints at Ephesus (let alone all saints everywhere) will be subverted. In fact, in Revelation 2:2 we find that the Ephesian saints heeded the warning of Paul, for Jesus commends them for not bearing "them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars."

� 1 Timothy 4:1-3 predicts that "in the latter times some shall depart from the faith," but not all.

� 2 Peter 2:1-3 predicts that "many," but not all, will follow the pernicious ways of false prophets to come. Indeed, the context immediately following is inconsistent with the conclusion that universal apostasy may result. Verses 4-9 cite the Old Testament example of Lot�s deliverance from the city of Sodom before its divine destruction to make the point that even in the worst times of spiritual degeneration there are those who are kept true to God, and whom He preserves: "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment..." (v.9). This passage constitutes a powerful argument for God�s providential protection of His people from universal apostasy.

� Revelation 13:4, 6-9 describes the persecution of Christians by Antichrist. We are told that it will be given unto him to "make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (v. 7). Again, a simple reading of the passage in context shows that it is describing events up to the end of the age, just before the return of Christ. Like 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it does not support the Mormon view of a great apostasy at the beginning of the Christian era. But even if one interprets this passage as applying to the early church, these verses clearly do not describe the falling away ("apostasy") of Christians from the truth, but the martyrdom of Christians for the truth (at the hands of Antichrist): "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (v. 7). This passage is not describing apostates, but heroes of the faith.

The passages that deal with apostasy do so with great seriousness. In no case, however, do they support the Mormon doctrine of a universal apostasy that extinguished the true gospel and the church of Jesus Christ from the earth, necessitating their later restoration.

(3) Christ promised His apostles that their converts� faith would endure: "I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go forth and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16, emphasis added). The theory of a universal apostasy in the generation immediately after the apostles is clearly inconsistent with Jesus� promise here.

(4) Christ commended faithful churches at the twilight of the apostolic era. The last New Testament book, Revelation, generally thought to have been written about A.D. 95, records Christ�s personal commendations of the churches at Smyrna (2:8-11) and Philadelphia (3:7-13) for standing fast against immorality and false doctrine. Jesus tells the congregation at Philadelphia: "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and has kept my word, and has not denied my name.... Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation" (Revelation 3:8,10, emphasis added).

(5) In 2 Timothy 2:2 Paul gives specific apostolic instructions for preserving pure doctrine: "The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." If universal apostasy immediately followed the apostles, either these inspired instructions were inadequate, or the apostles themselves failed to follow them.

(6) The witness of the early church contravenes the notion of an early apostasy. A continuous line of historical evidence from as early as A.D. 95-100 shows that the Christian community considered the writings of Jesus� apostles the supreme doctrinal standard. By the last half of the second century there was already universal agreement among the far-flung Christian congregations regarding the inspired nature of 20 of the 27 New Testament books.12 Support for the remaining seven books (Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Revelation) was widespread, contested only by some. By the end of the fourth century recognition of these books also was virtually universal.

The apostolic writings were treated as a precious treasure and carefully handed down to successive generations. Writing about A.D. 180, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, cited the collective memory of the Christian community as the basis for confidence that the apostles� teaching had been accurately preserved: "True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which they have handed down that church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]..." (emphasis added).13 Irenaeus�s authoritative testimony directly contradicts the charge of 1 Nephi 13 that parts of the original New Testament writings were deliberately removed by apostates.

The Mormon church�s charge of a universal apostasy immediately after the time of the apostles requires us to believe that despite all the divine promises and safeguards, and with the ink barely dry on the New Testament Scriptures, God allowed the entire ministry of Christ and His apostles to be undermined by apostates, plunging humanity into spiritual darkness for 1800 years. Clearly, there is something wrong with this picture.

The lack of any biblical and historical evidence for such an apostasy poses a serious dilemma for the Mormon church. If apostolic Christianity was not destroyed by such an alleged apostasy, there is no basis for Joseph Smith�s claim to have restored original Christianity. Mormon apostle James E. Talmage acknowledged, "If the alleged apostasy of the primitive church was not a reality, The Church of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims."14

REJECTED AND LOST SCRIPTURES

A third Mormon argument against the finality of the New Testament is that the early church rejected some books of inspired Scripture, while others were lost. Before considering specific examples of books thought by Mormon scholars to have been wrongly passed over, it will be helpful to survey what is known about the historical process by which the New Testament canon was established.

There are two relevant questions that call for answers. (1) On what basis were some books accepted and others rejected? (2) Who made the decisions to accept and reject these books? The answers to these questions will dramatically affect our understanding of the term "canon." Is it an authoritative list of books, or a list of authoritative books? In other words, does the authority reside in a religious body that controlled the selection process, or is it inherent in the books themselves?

Most of the Latter-day Saints with whom I have discussed this subject seem to understand the canon in the former sense, as an authoritative list of books. The Third Council of Carthage in A.D. 397 is often cited as the religious body that controlled the selection process. The description of the occasion supplied by Mormon apostle Orson Pratt is representative of this view: "The Pope of Rome gathered together these contending persons in the form of a council, and they sat in judgment upon various manuscripts professing to be divine. That quarreling and contending Council decided that a certain number of books should be admitted as divine, and should form the true canon of Scripture, and that no other books should be added. We are informed that this Council rejected a vast number of books. Some of these books were considered by part of the Council to be of divine origin."15

Pratt�s characterization of the nature and significance of this council�s actions as they relate to the canon of the New Testament is inaccurate and misleading on at least two points. First, the Third Council of Carthage was not an ecumenical council convened by the bishop of Rome, but a provincial council presided over by Aurelius, bishop of Carthage. It therefore made no claim to speak for or to the entire Christian church. While it issued the first formal pronouncement regarding the limits of the New Testament canon, it was merely affirming what had already been largely settled by A.D. 175-200 and widely acknowledged and discussed. In the words of the late F. F. Bruce, the men at this council "did not impose any innovation on the churches; they simply endorsed what had become the general consensus of the churches of the west and the greater part of the east."16

Second, the evidence does not support Pratt�s stereotype of the canonization process as one of hierarchical fiat. Its basis was not an appeal to the authority of a pope or council of bishops, but to certain objective, historical qualities possessed by the books themselves. Three criteria in particular seem to have guided the early Christians in judging whether a book was God-breathed Scripture:

(1) Apostolic origin � a book needed to have its origin in the small band of apostles appointed by Christ.17 The apostles were a unique group. Most of them were eyewitnesses to Christ�s earthly ministry and resurrection, and Paul was called directly by Christ. Their testimony and teaching is the foundation on which the Christian church is built (Eph. 2:20). Apostolic authority was understood to include several books penned by close associates of the apostles, written under their influence and during their lifetimes.

(2) Continuous usage by the church � a book needed an unbroken record from ancient times of use in public reading among Christian congregations. This guaranteed its historical link to the apostles. It was also practical evidence of its edifying value in the lives of countless believers. Thus, for example, the historian Eusebius (ca. A.D. 263-339) says in defense of the scriptural status of the Epistles of James and Jude that, although they are not mentioned as often by the earliest Christian writers, "Nevertheless we know that these also, with the rest, have been read publicly in very many churches."18

(3) Harmony with the Old Testament and apostolic teaching � a book needed to be consistent with God�s revelation contained in the canonical Old Testament recognized by Christ,19 as well as with the known teaching of the apostles. Since God cannot lie or contradict Himself, what He reveals will not conflict with previous revelation (Deut. 13:1-3; Gal. 1:6-9).

Considering the widespread, decentralized nature of the early Christian congregations, and the fact that the various New Testament writings were in most cases originally delivered to a single local congregation or individual, it is surprising to discover how quickly they were copied and circulated, and their status as Scripture recognized. A statement in the Second Epistle of Peter implies that already in the apostolic age the epistles of Paul were being collected and accorded status on par with the Old Testament Scriptures: "...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unstable and unlearned wrest, as they do also the other scriptures" (2 Pet. 3:15-16).

As early as A.D. 100 the four Gospels and the major epistles of Paul were widely recognized as Scripture.20 The consensus regarding the New Testament canon continued to grow rapidly during the second century, so that by A.D. 175-200, 20 of the 27 New Testament books (the four Gospels, Acts, the 13 epistles of Paul, 1 Peter and 1 John) were recognized throughout the widespread Christian congregations as inspired Scripture. Bruce M. Metzger of Princeton Seminary concludes in his standard work on the New Testament canon: "What is really remarkable is that, though the fringes of the New Testament canon remained unsettled for centuries, a high degree of unanimity concerning the greater part of the New Testament was attained within the first two centuries among the very diverse and scattered congregations not only throughout the Mediterranean world but also over an area extending from Britain to Mesopotamia."21

Representatives of the Mormon church have cited as examples of lost books the epistle of Paul to the Laodiceans (see Col. 4:16) and a third epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (see 1 Cor. 5:9).22 They have also pointed to various rejected books, which they claim were wrongly excluded from the New Testament canon. These include four popular works by early Christians written after the time of the apostles: the epistle of Clement, the epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the apocalypse of Peter. 23

Concerning the two "lost" letters of Paul, we can only conclude that God chose not to preserve them. As for the rejected books, space does not permit an individual evaluation of these writings here.24 In general it may be said that the rejected books failed to meet the basic criteria of verified apostolic origin and were not in full harmony with known apostolic teaching.

Yet one wonders why even a Mormon should take the suggestions of his church seriously, since the First Presidency of the Mormon church has not chosen to incorporate any of these rejected books into its edition of the King James Version Bible. It would surely have done so if any of them were known or came to be known �through the First Presidency�s claimed gift of prophet, seer, and revelator � to be of sacred revelation.

DID REVELATION CEASE WITH JESUS' APOSTLES?

As was noted at the beginning of this article, it is a cardinal tenet of Mormonism that the canon of Scripture is not closed and that God is still revealing new truth through latter-day prophets. This is expressed very forcefully in 2 Nephi 29:6,9-10: "Thou fool that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible...because I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man... Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written."

Why does historic Christianity reject such a view? There are two basic reasons. First, because the New Testament portrays the office of apostle as limited to the first generation of Christians, and makes no provision for the succession of others to this one-time office.25 For the most part, the apostles were eyewitnesses of Jesus� earthly ministry and resurrection (Acts 1:21,22; 1 Cor. 15:5-8), and their writings are the church�s foundation and final authority (Eph. 2:20).

The early Christians recognized the unique authority of the first-century apostles. This is illustrated by a passage in one of the letters of Clement, bishop of Rome, in the late first century (who may be the Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians 4:3). He describes the apostles appointing bishops and deacons, but not other apostles:

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ....they [the apostles] appointed the first-fruits [of their labors], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons.26

In accord with this are the humble words of Ignatius, bishop of Antioch (A.D. 30-107): "I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commands unto you. They were apostles; while I am, even until now, a servant."27

Perhaps the most striking illustration of this point is the rationale given in the Muratorian Canon, ca. A.D. 200,28 for rejecting a popular Christian work, The Shepherd of Hermas:

But Hermas composed The Shepherd quite recently in our times in the city of Rome, while his brother Pius, the bishop, occupied the seat of the city of Rome. And therefore, it should indeed be read, but it cannot be published for the people in the church [i.e., be used for Scripture reading in congregational worship], neither among the Prophets [i.e., Old Testament books], since their number is complete, nor among the Apostles [i.e., the New Testament books] for it is after their time. (emphasis added)29

The second reason the Christian church does not look for latter-day revelation is that the Bible presents Christ�s incarnation, atoning death, and victorious resurrection as the once-for-all culmination of God�s plan of salvation foretold and foreshadowed in the Old Testament (Heb. 1:1-2; 9:26-28; 10:10; Jude 3). Thus, how could additional revelation add anything essential to the Christian message?

Surely, at the very least, latter-day revelation would have to be in complete accord with apostolic doctrine. As Paul declares in Galatians 1:8, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." It is precisely those doctrines unique to Mormonism, such as the plurality of Gods, eternal progression, and secret temple ordinances, which lack a biblical basis and in fact contradict biblical teaching. And the Mormon gospel of salvation by works stands condemned as another gospel from that of the inspired Scriptures.

Hebrews 2:3 asks a sobering question which highlights the foundation of the Christian message on the testimony of Christ and the apostles, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him" (emphases added). There is no biblical basis for expecting further revelation. The church�s task is rather to preach and teach and defend the faith once-for-all delivered unto the saints (Jude 3), until Christ returns.

Luke P. Wilson, a graduate of Calvin Theological Seminary, is the executive director of Gospel Truths Ministries and the Institute for Religious Research in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

NOTES

1As quoted by Elder A. Theodore Tuttle, Official Report of the One Hundred Forty-Third Annual General Conference of the Church of Latter-day Saints, April 6-8, 1973 (Salt Lake City: Deseret Press, 1973), 12.
2Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co. and Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1988), 88. Nibley affirms: "When Jesus instructed Peter, James, and John to tell no man of what they had seen on the Mount of Transfiguration, he was withholding sacred things from the uninitiated...."
3This detail supplied in Matthew 26:63.
4George E. Reynolds and Janne E. Sjodohl, Commentary on the Book of Mormon, 7 vols. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1955, 1976), 1:127.
5Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible! (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1990), 13.
6The Philosophical Basis of "Mormonism" (1915. Reprint, Peoria, AZ: Eborn Books, 1994), 23-25.
7Nibley, 27.
8Ibid. See also "Establishing the Truth of the Bible," in First Nephi: The Doctrinal Foundation (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1988), 206; see also in the same anthology, Stephen E. Robinson, "Early Christianity and 1 Nephi 13-14," 188.
9Gospel Principles (Salt Lake City: Corporation of the President of the Church of Latter-day Saints, 1988), 46.
10Roger R. Keller, "Do I Know My Neighbor?" Ensign, 26,27.
11James E. Talmage, The Great Apostasy Considered in the Light of Scriptural and Secular History (Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1968 reprint), 27-31.
12R. Laird Harris, Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1957, 1969), 202, and R. M. Grant, "The New Testament Canon," in R. Ackroyd and C. F. Evans, eds., The Cambridge History of the Bible, 4 vols. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1970), 1:285.
13Against Heresies, IV, 33.8, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987 reprint), 1:508.
14Talmage, iii.
15Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 7:26.
16F. F. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1988), 97.
17Adolph Harnack, History of Dogma, 7 vols., 3d ed. (New York: Dover, 1960 reprint), 1:158-60.
18Church History, II, 23, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, 1:128.
19See Luke 24:44, where Jesus, speaking of the fulfillment of Scripture, recognizes the three divisions of the traditional Jewish canon.
20Harris, 202 and Grant, 1:285.
21Bruce M. Metzger, The Canon of the New Testament (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987), 254.
22Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1979), s.v. "Lost Scripture," 454.
23Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks, "Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity," Ensign, March 1988, 7-11.
24I did give specific reasons for rejecting each of these books in a paper delivered at the October 1992 Chicago Sunstone Symposium. A copy is available on request from the Institute for Religious Research, 1340 Monroe Ave. N.W., Grand Rapids, MI 49505. Or, it may be downloaded from the Internet: shaggy.fusionary.com/mit/lostbook1.html
25It could be argued that modern-day missionaries serve an apostolic function as "sent ones." Be that as it may, such local church planters are clearly not in a class with those first-century apostles who planted the universal church and were given unique revelatory authority for that task.
26The First Epistle of Clement, XLII, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:16.
27Epistle to the Romans, IV, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:75.
28The traditional date is contested by Geoffrey M. Hahneman, The Muratorian Canon and the Development of the Canon (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992), who places it in the fourth century. However, a consensus of scholars still date it about A.D. 200 � see J. D. Douglas, ed., The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, rev. ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1974, 1978), 684-85, and Everett Ferguson, ed., Encyclopedia of the Early Church (New York: Garland, 1990), 628-29.
29The translation of David J. Theron, Evidences of Tradition (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1957, 1980), 113.

I was searching specifically for this answer: Is Glenn Beck a mormon? Looks like I might have found the answer. Both my wife and I more than suspected this and I admit that I am disappointed. Glenn's show is normally entertaining and sometimes enlightening, just like he says.
He is a smart guy and I'm saddened that he has gone down that road. I prefer this definition of a cult: "a group of people basing their beliefs upon the world view of an isolated leadership which always denies the central doctrines of Christianity as taught in the Bible."
Beck is part of a growing and powerful cult which cannot be proven by history or archeology. An untraceable language, no evidence of millions of people that die in a battle, crops and animals in the Americas long before any other historical evidence supports it. Things just don't add up. Check it out for yourself.

I am so tired of finding this same debate over and over. So you say Mormonism can't be "proven"? So what? Neither can it be DISproven. Can you prove the Bible to be true or infallible, as I have non-Morman Christians believe? Get it people, only God is infallible. The Bible was written down and transcribed and translated and now interpreted and re-interpreted by MEN, not God . . . His revelations are perfect and infallible, but with the passage of time, what we call "Biblical" is no longer so. Moreover, "mormonism" does not contradict the Bible, though it does add to it. Again, so what? Why do you think you can put God in a little box and throw away the key. Must He be silent now? He can't possibly have anything else to say other than what is in the Bible as we know it today (the lost books cited to in the Bible itself clearly contradict that, but anyway)? Do we no longer need His guidance? Does He no longer care to interact with us? I don't believe that for a second. I find it much more reasonable to believe that God continues to interact with us today through living prophets and I thank God for being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, where I can HEAR HIM!!!

I've now slogged through this entire thread, and the one thing that keeps popping up is the pervasive use of the terms "proof" "prove" and "truth".

My dear friends who call Mormonism a cult because it allegedly can't be "proven" by archeology or history, answer me this: when Jesus preached to the Jews, were they convinced by archeology and history, or by something else? Is man's timeless search for Truth dependent on scholars' research of places, people, and documents? Because that is what you are all saying--Mormonism is false because no smart German guys have unearthed any cities with a "Welcome to Zarahemla" placard on the gates. Seriously? I wonder what the Jews said to Jesus when he told them that it was the Holy Ghost who would lead them into all truth? They must have thought he was nuts. Not a scholar, or a priest, or a magazine of critical essays on the pentateuch? What an outrage! How are intelligent folks supposed to prove to themselves that something is true if they don't have some archeological or scholarly people backing them up?

Yeah, the Bible is the word of God. And you know this how, exactly? Who proved to you that it is? Scholars? Or is it just because it's old and universally distributed? Because if you have somehow received some confirmation of its veracity from above, the inevitable question is why you presume to limit God to confirming just that one book?

I don't expect any answers, but I think people who are so concerned with my salvation should examine the basis for why their's is so assured.

Cheers.

Finally, Dave gets it. The debate over the "truth" of this religion or that is not about "fact and evidence". It's about FAITH. This is the true test that our Heavenly Father has given us. Will be live by faith or be swayed by a scientific community that will continually attempt to prove or disprove this or that theory about the truthfulness of the gospel. Get on your bloody knees for pete's sake and say a prayer. This is where the truth comes from.

hey glenn i love your show my hate mail is to all the sickos out there with their eyes on our children our country is so weak minded and ready to spend our tax money to let them live in jail i say lets blow one large sum and build an island somewhere surround the island with the no fince wire used for dumb dogs and put callars on these freaks so that every time they try to leave they get shocked and if thats not humane enough for you sind rakes soil and seeds if there smart enough maybe theyll survive

I love Glenn Beck. I am also a Mormon. I used to be a Mormon hater, but that is only because I listened to what the world had to say about them. I didn't even believe in God. Through a series of wonderful events, I came to know by the power of the Holy Ghost, for myself that the Book of Mormon is true. I didn't learn by applying my logic or other wordly learning, or by looking for facts to back it up. The only thing that I had was burning testimony inside my heart that it was true. Before my conversion, my husband, who was already LDS, asked me if I would read the Book of Mormon to find out if it was true. I told him I didn't need to read it to find out it was true, I already knew that it wasn't. Pretty stupid response, huh? As it turns out, I did'nt need to read it to find out if it was true because the fact of it's truthfulness was revealed to me before I read it. I have since read it many times, and I still know that it is true. Someday, we will all know the truth of things.

the idea of proof is to me quite hillarious.

In order to prove anything you must first know everything.

In knowing everything you can prove that there is nothing with which to disprove what you know (because you know everything) to be fact.

Nothing which is incomplete can hold fact/or partial fact, because there can be no proof.

I'm inclined in reading all of this to side with those who have supported why they beleive their religion is true, without saying someone elses isn't and pursuing that as their main argument.

I'm going to get a little cheezy here and quote Morpheus from the matrix.
"Commander Lock: Not everyone believes what you do Morpheus.
Morpheus: My beliefs do not require them to."

A great deal of how people live their faith is determined by the source in which they gather their own self image. (Pride dare I say?)

Morpheus displays in his statement the source of his self image/faith. What he beleives to be true is determined by *drum roll* what HE feels. He does not require the validation of others having the same beleifs. Using this sort of logic, you can make a supposition on just how comfortable and self reliant one is with their religion. The association of others with the same beleifs can be used either way. In a round about way the statement i'm trying to make is this.
Find within yourself what you truly beleive based on what your religion says to YOU and how YOU FEEL about it. Religion just as politics (and all other matters in life) is a decision that cannot and must not be made based on the persuasion and logic of another. #
James 1: 5
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

With this I say, Seek for yourself, and give others the same opportunity.

I am LDS and I love it. I chose my faith for myself. I do so because that which is most dear to me, my Family. The promise which I receive through my faith (and do chose to beleive)of being able to be with my family eternaly is one that I feel deeper than the marrow of my bones. Such a feeling is enough to disuade the most convincing logic in the contrary.

Thankyou for reading what I have had to say, and thankyou in advance for treating it with respect, I trust that in following with the example of Christ you too can share the overwhelming FEELing of love and caring that he has for us. These things I say with faith and love in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Dallin - Amen! Since when does our Father in Heaven provide proof to us of his existance or require us try to find that proof? We are to live by faith, not sight. A knowledge given to us by the Holy Ghost is worth more than an ocean of man's knowledge or "proof" of God. To say that there is no evidence that Christ was ever in the America's proves that he wasn't is ridiculous logic. To say that relying on your feelings to know what is true about God is wrong is also ridiculous. How were people thousands of years ago supposed to know about Him? They didn't have easy access to Bibles or all the other supposed proof that has been diplayed in many of the above postings. They had to go on their feelings. First, a feeling or a yearning to know God, then affirmation that seeking Him is good thing. If the only thing we have to show us the way we should is the Bible, then we would be in trouble. One must first have a feeling or desire to read it because the Holy Ghost will impart that to those who wish to seek God. If one only looks at the Book of Mormon from a completely logical standpoint, then that person will never know the true power that is in that book. But if one approaches the book with faith, that person will know whether or not it is true. You need not approach it with faith that it is true, only with faith that God will let you know whether or not it true. I spent 6 hours today in a college philosophy class today and just had to shake my head. The teacher said part of philosophy is answering the big questions of why are we here, who are we, does God exist, and the nature of the universe. I already know the answer to these things and I learned them in relatively short period of time. The philosophers we talked about today spent their entire lifetimes in search of this knowledge and they never could come up with the correct answer, or really any answer at all. If you truly want to know if the Book of Mormon is true, ask our Father in Heaven. You don't have to be afraid to do this, because if it is not true, he will tell you because He doesn't lie. If it is true, then what a treasure you have found. Please don't look for your answer in the philosophies of men.

I've never taken much stock in philosophy class. I too have been through many courses of such nature at the college level. It's all the same ideas in different words throughout time.

I'm not a mormon, but I live in Utah and about half of my friends are mormon. They are some of the nicest people i've ever met and it pisses me off to hear people badmouth them because they have different beliefs. Get over it! I'm not going to join because i love to drink and party a little, but get off their backs, they are good people!

Joel, you have not done your homework on the Mormons. No cult post's a sign that says "visitors welcome" on the outside of everyone of their churches. The Mormon's are a wholesome, loving, Christian bunch who follow the teachings of Christ. If it bothers you so much that Glenn Beck is Mormon, do some investigation into how many CIA and FBI officers are mormons, and that'll make your head spin! Beyond that, you should take down all your anti-mormon comments because anyone who does do their homework will conclude you are wrong.

Wow, after all this, for me it boils down to this, Christians. Let's pray for Glenn Beck to be filled with the Holy Spirit and led by Him into the full truth of Jesus Christ. That he may see and know the only true God and be led into a full understanding of His Word, the Bible. May his spiritual eyes be opened. Glenn is a great communicator...may he continue to speak God's truths, and continue to grow in his understanding of what is truly right and holy. May Jesus show Himself in fullness to this neat guy, for His name's sake. Amen. Bob

Cudos for Glenn Beck. Why? He has us talking about the most important person the Earth has ever hosted or ever known, Jesus. And he did it without even trying!

No one that I know of has ever won anyone over to their side of thinking by winning "the argument", especially when it was about Who Jesus is. I have never heard anyone say, "Oh, I'm sorry, you're right, I was wrong, I'm an idiot."

According to the Bible, people are won to Jesus in two different ways: the goodness of God, and by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Notice none of these ways included agruments or debates.

Both sides need to pray to God and sincerely ask to show if they have wrong paradigms to as Who He is.

Next, let's have the courage to admit that we were wrong, so that others can know the truth. Not so the other side can say, "I told you so!".

That is what repentance is: admiting you are wrong and turning away from the old.

In the end, truth wins each and every time. The pursuit of truth is the safest journey anyone can ever take. Atheist have tried to prove that there is no God. In order to do so they had to pursue truth. Each and every time, these atheist found out they were wrong and accepted Jesus.

What does all of this have to do with the argument of the LDS movement being wrong or the LDS movement being right? You do the math. Pursue the truth.

Oh, you may be wondering which side I belong to? I belong to the side of Truth. I, my friend, am a Christian.

The most entertaining thing to me is that, in this world full of hate, violence, war, murder, rape, among many other things, some people have nothing better to do than try to bring down people who are trying to live good lives.

WHO CARES what religion Glenn Beck (or anyone else for that matter) professes? If the person is using that religion to help them become a better person, then that's one more good person that the world desperately needs.

The most offensive thing I see among all these posts is so called "Christians" who are devoted only to bring down someone else who professes to be a Christian as well. Ask yourself, would Christ be tearing down others? No. He would be preaching to the heathens, those cast out and despised, the poor and meek. I think Jesus Christ would be happy with Glenn Beck or anyone else who is trying to make a positive difference, despite whether or not they believe in something that happens to be different.

Someone much wiser than me once said: "When we get to heaven, we're going to be very surprised at who we see there with us." I dare say we will see people like Glenn Beck - who try to make a positive difference in this world - and not those who spend theri lives trying to tear good people down.

Hey, if Mormons are Christians, explain the following. Whenever I am filling out applications that asks what religion I am, it always has "Mormon" as a choice separate from "Christian" as a choice. If I ask a Mormon without knowing they are a Mormon if they are a Christian, they say that they are a Mormon. Which leads me to believe one of two things: Mormons believe they are the only "true Christians"and the term Mormon says it all or Mormons don't like being associated with the term, Christian. Well??? What is it? I'll go enjoy me a cup of caffeine filled coffee, or maybe a Coca-Cola while you ponder this Mr/Ms. Mormon.

Hey Gary,

WHO CARES if Mormons are Christian!?! Are the majority of Mormons trying to live good lives and make the world a better place? If you have ever known any you undoubtedly will say yes.

Yet you want to argue whether or not the word "Christian" can be associated with the word "Mormon", and take shots at Mormons for their beliefs about coffee and/or caffeine.

Nice work bashing a religious group of people - a group who are, for the most part, trying to live based on something they truly believe in.

You should feel really good about yourself; nothing like picking on someone who is different from you are. Classy.

"Hey, if Mormons are Christians, explain the following. Whenever I am filling out applications that asks what religion I am, it always has "Mormon" as a choice separate from "Christian" as a choice. If I ask a Mormon without knowing they are a Mormon if they are a Christian, they say that they are a Mormon. Which leads me to believe one of two things: Mormons believe they are the only "true Christians"and the term Mormon says it all or Mormons don't like being associated with the term, Christian. Well??? What is it? I'll go enjoy me a cup of caffeine filled coffee, or maybe a Coca-Cola while you ponder this Mr/Ms. Mormon."

Oh you're right.. The which box to check on an application argument..

I don't check Mormon because that's not I am or we are. We're LDS. I check Christian. Yes I am what you would call a mormon. But I am what I would call an active Christian member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Rock on with your Coca-Cola, I prefer Pepsi or Mt Dew... Or the occasional Dr. Pepper.

On days when i'm draggin i'll hammer down a Monster Assault.

Caffeine isn't why we don't drink Coffee, We don't drink it because we're counseled not to, and we have faith in that counsel.

Hey Paul, being a Christian takes more than living a good life and trying to make the world a better place.It even takes more than believing in Jesus. What? The Bible says that even demons believe in Jesus and tremble because of it. So believing in Jesus doesn't make you a Christian, it just might mean that you have a demon.

As far as the word Christian being associated with the word Mormon, I didn't write those applications, and I certainly didn't answer Mormon for these people. They answered the question all by themselves. I was only making an observation. I wasn't asking you to condemn me.

Why is it that you feel it's ok to condemn people who don't believe like you??? Who died and left you protector of the Mormons??? The caffeine thing - tongue in cheek. Not familiar with sarcasm are we???

Oh Dallin, oh Dallin. MORMON - LDS same difference. You and I both know it. That's like me saying, "Wait, don't call me a human being, call me a homo-sapien!"

Why can't you just call yourself a Christian and leave it at that? You don't hear the Baptist people saying that they are an active Christian member of the Baptist church, do you? You certainly don't see Assembly of God, Lutheran, Baptist, Church of Christ, etc... on applications either.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a definite distinction between Christians and Mormons, oh, I'm sorry, LDS. And it is that way because that is the way you the LDS want it.

Why do you need to have counsel on what you drink? Do you have to pay for this counsel? (Sarcasm Paul, only sarcasm, protector of the Mormons!) Don't tell me it isn't about "caffeine" when you and I both know it is. Does the prophet know that you drink caffeine?

You really need to re-think this commitment that you have made to the LDS church. You need to have a commitment to God. It is ok to be guided by your church in your Christian faith, but let's not put more trust in the church than you do in God.

On a completely different note, what do you think about the new series on HBO called Big Love? Does it anger you?

I professed Christ as my personal savior on July 17, 1972. I was informed that I would be saved in the kingdom of God.

On February 13, 1978 I was baptised, by one who was properly commissioned by Christ to act in His name, into the family of Christ, otherwise known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This event occurred after a event in which I recieved personal revelation from God the Father indicating that the Book of Mormon was a true record and also a testament of Christ and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. This personal revelation was based on a feeling, one unmistakably given to me delivered by the power of the Holy Ghost and from my Father in Heaven, much as the Savior described Peter's testimony when he said, Blessed are thou Simon Barjona for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto you but my Father which is in Heaven.

I testify this is true. You can call me a liar or deluded or mentally deficient, however you cannot say I do not believe it with all my heart. This cannot be argued.

What I would like to know is where I fit into those, who claim that "Mormons" aren't Christians, idea of life and salvation.

I was Born Again...that is all I need to do correct?

I offer those who say "Mormons" are not Christians a stone. Cast it at me if you will. Persecute me if you will.

So it was with Christ. He is my Master, I follow him even into persecution.

Regarding the doctrine of polytheism. Latter Day Saints believe that we will be joint heirs with the savior. If you don't believe that then I will assume you are not Christian as it found in Romans Chapter 8 vs 17.

I am concerned for all of you, my Brothers and Sisters. I know we will both stand at the Judgement Bar of God and then we will both be of one mind. I hope that it will be a joyous occasion for both of us. One thing I know for sure is that at that time truth will be sure and my testimony is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the true and living Church of God here upon the earth and what makes this church different from every other church on earth at this time is that we have Divine Authority (permission to act in Gods name) through Inspired Revelation (our church is led through prophets).

Love your Brother in Christ.

I'm a former Mormon. I am now an Evangelical Christian in the traditionalist Episcopal mold. I do not believe Mormons will enjoy Heaven. This said, I enjoy Glenn Beck's show. I am not concerned that he is a Mormon: he does not wear this on his sleeve during his program. In any case, whatever disagreements I have with the LDS Church, I think there is a time and a place to work on the things about which we agree and not those about which we disagree.

Its easy to see how children pick up their religious beliefs, as they are being taught by the most influential people in their lives; their parents. But it's hard to believe that an adult like Mr. Beck could read the Joseph Smith "story" and believe it to be true.

Nice work Gary. Once again you avoid the point.

In general, Mormons are good, decent people. The world is better because of them and people like them. It is completely irrelevant to get into the specifics of what they believe.

People like you, however, can't just let good people be good. You've got to judge. You've got to discriminate. You've got to belittle.

A FAR cry from what the Bible teaches for sure.

blah, blah, blah....

No one posting here is going to change their mind.

So much confusion here, it is not hate, or opinion, or intolerance to say that Mormonism is a cult, it is simply a fact. If anyone dares to do a little research - they will find the HUGE differences between Christianity and Mormonism. Not just little differences, huge. Read the Doctrine and Covenants, meet with Mormon "elders" and ask them to tell you their beliefs about Jesus, read the Teachings of Joseph Smith, and most importantly, read the Bible and see if you think it needed to be added on to and changed by any man. Most of all, pray for truth. Blessed are the peacemakers - I pray that you respond to each other in love. Blessings to all of you.

Holy cow this was a fun read. Want me to end it all? I'm mormon. We're a freaking cult alright? Satisfied? Give it up idiots.

"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief." (History of Christianity, Edward Gibbon).
Evangelical Protestants are suckers, nothing but the bastard offspring of the Catholic Church. Please stop pretending the Trinity concept is in the Bible and go read the Nicene Creed.

All I know is that if we can agree that Jesus Christ is the ONE and ONLY way to the Father , then we have enough to be unified together . We will all have many doctrinal differences ; it's always been that way and will continue until Jesus' return . Satan loves nothing more than to stir up division among us . Our focus needs to remain on Christ , not ourselves . Every time we lose that focus , we get in trouble .
I'm not a Morman but I love me some Glenn Beck !

This is a very interesting discussion. I had no idea that Glenn Beck was Mormon, but now that I know it- it explains a lot of things. Beck is a lot more mellow than Limbaugh or especially Sean Hannity.

Having grown up on the border of Southern Utah, not far from Colorado City or Big Water, I saw first hand the ugly side of fundamentalist mormonism. Thankfully, the Mormon church has moved away from what it used to be to a less isolated and friendlier church philosophy (everywhere except for a few places in Utah and Idaho that is).

I am not Mormon. I am a registered Democrat. But I'm also a born again Christian. And while Mormonism has long set off my BS-o-meter, I could completely understand the difficulty of leaving the church (especially considering how remarkably strong the family unit is for them), and for that reason, critical self analysis would be dangerous. In other words- dont look because you might not be able to handle what you find.

This probably explains why Mormon explainations in this thread have been more based on feelings than on science, biblical scripture or even logic. I don't blame them. To be honest, I'd do just the same if I was born into a Mormon Family.

America was founded on the idea that people should have religious freedom- and that all kinds of religion should be protected. I'm not here to evangelize as Joel did, but I would agree with one key point he made- Mormons should not call themselves Christians. Its very inflamatory to Christians because they view the LDS church as a cult. So debate, disagree, whatever. But remember, just as a Mexican citizen cannot declare himself a true US citizen just by wanting to, only Christians can call Mormons Christans.

And by the way- has there ever been a Mormon Senate Majority Leader? Because Harry Reid is a Mormon. And he's about to become Senate Majority Leader. How Ironic. Hands down the most conservative demographic of Americans will finally be represented in a leadership position by a Democrat of all things.

One last thing- I've known Mormons for a long time, and while some were jerks and many were clueless, I would say on the whole I'm very impressed with them. They are often middle class, healthy workers with great morals and seem to love America more than anyone else. Maybe Mormonism is a cult. If so, its the greatest, most successful cult in world history.

It's funny to listen yo people say that because of glenn beck a person is switching to Mormonism. The only reason people like beck and the relgious right need you for is to make a profit off of you, nothing more. Those that think by being part of Becks "Insider" fan club will bring you closer to Beck the only thing that you are doing is bringing your wallet or purse closer to his hand that's all he cares about.
If you want to believe in something that has substance and IS AWE INSPIRING, save your money and buy a telescope and look out into the cosmos (space) There is unfounded beauty and knowledge out there not from Beck who is pitifulland manipulative just to get your money. Salvation does not come from listening to Beck, but letting go and looking out,up and beyond. Save your mone, buy a telescope.

You say:
TruthMeister's Comments: The Book of Mormon is a sham ... I recommend doing a deep study of this cult

Why not take your own advice and do a deep study of this religion. If you were to think about it, rather than bash it because you understand it, you might just find out why so many people like Glenn and myself are getting serious about it -- It's fascinating -- It's the most Christian of all Christian religions -- and It's True!

Glenn Beck is pretty good, he is quite entertaining and as far as religion is concerned, believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter that the LDS Church is Christs true church on earth if you want to believe otherwise it is perfectly fine because the majority of ya'll will get another chance when you die. So eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!

Jesus said in Matthew 7:15, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

How then, are we to recognize false prophets?

Deuteronomy 18:22 says, “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”

· Joseph Smith said that tall men dressed as Quakers live on the moon.
· Brigham Young said that men live on the sun, as well.
· Joseph Smith prophesied that Jesus would return by 1891.
. Brigham Young prophesied that the Civil War would not free the slaves

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Great post Mike! May everyone who is truly seeking find the TRUTH. And maybe those who are just popping in to blindly and carelessly regurgitate the "quit judging quit dividing" quit hating" statements -- will now perhaps be motivated enough to go find the truth. I pray that you will.

Last time I checked there was only one perfect person: Jesus Christ. If you want to pick apart every word that came out of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young's mouths, by all means, be my guest. Prophets and apostles are HUMAN. They make mistakes (ever heard of Peter?)

In the meantime, millions like me will repeatedly testify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has brought a joy, love, peace and happiness into our lives that, to us, is witness of its truth.

Oh come on Mike, don't stop there. The bible continues on to testify that "by their fruits ye shall know them" (with respect to prophets/false prophets).

Let's look at just a few of the fruits of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young:

1) A church that teaches forgiveness, charity, humiltiy, and love to one another.
2) A church that donates literally BILLIONS of dollars to charitable causes to help make the world a better place.
3) A church that teaches chastity, sobriety, and honesty in dealings with fellow man.
4) A church that puts an extreme emphasis on family values and family relationships.
5) A church that teaches that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, and the way to happiness in this life, as well as eternal life, is to follow his example.

I guess in your mind these are bad fruits, eh?

I don't claim to know who is going to heaven and who is not. I do think that those who are trying to make that judgement have fallen out of God's good graces. The audacity is nauseating. That one could claim to know the the mind and heart and individual circumstance of any one person is the most gross example of pride possible. God is the one who makes the judgements. As to who is right and who is wrong, I hope we are not using biblical reference as a reliable source. The exact arguments one uses for "proof" can be used with Mormons, Muslims, Buddihsts, Catholics, Hindus, or whatever other denomination you choose. No wonder being a Christian is so hard, our worst enemies come from within. Grow up and "love one another, by this all men shall know that ye are my disciples." Those of you who are taking your time to so unjustifiably speak ill of your neighbor do not resemble the Chrisitanity Jesus spoke of. Jesus wants us to be converted each and every day. You are not saved if you are not worthy of the salvation. Christ's blood came at price we cannot comprehend and does not apply just because you say it does. It applies when you love him. How does he know whether or not you love him? I dare say the word of man is not the most reliable eveidence. No, He said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He did not say, "If ye love me, simply state the time and date of your conversion and proceed to assail my other children." These new "born again" Christians and their quickie conversions are highkacking the faith and taking it in a direction that makes it more convenient for them to live. Why have works to accompany faith? Why feed the poor and clothe the naked? Why pay tithes and offerings? Why fast and pray? Why do all of these things when in one moment you can "accept Jesus" and be done. I find it disturbing that a person feels they can accept the sacrifice of the Lord and Redeemer of the world as easily as making a confession at and Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

Wow. It is pretty amazing you folks have kept this up for over three years.

You all (Mormons and their bashers alike) might want to find something more constructive to do with your time.

I joined the LDS church two years ago. I wanted to join because of my children - they have great youth programs. My family and I were happy - but always questioning what was going on. I truly believe the church is good, but many of its members just go through the motions, not using their own gifts and brains. We have been to 10 different wards and what people say are identical - it is like they don't say what they really want to. That is the reason we chose not to go to the temple. I don't want to live my life like a lemming. That is not why God made us unique. I have to say that I have witnessed and seen miracles happen within the church, but I think within only one ward who's members were true to themselves. So at this time my family is more confused than ever and because of that we are working our way out. But I hold no contempt towards them and think if they wake up then that church could be wonderful.

kudos to Dave and how he handled Joel. Joel I detect you are a hippocrite

I just read all the posts for the last hour. Impressed by the argumentive style and points made by both the mormons and non-mormons. I do not believe Mormonism can be proved or disproved just as neither can the Catholic Church nor the teachings of the Baptists, etc. Based upon my experience, Mormons live a more "Christian" life than any other group I have known. They live their religion versus just profess a faith - this is a major difference. I have met fine members of other churches but I think even those arguing against the truth of Mormonism would agree that there is something about this religion that takes people to a higher level of "goodness". I do not believe they are working for their salvation - they are living the teachings of Christs because that is what they were taught to do when they were young. Other Churches should learn from the Mormons and this would truely make the world a better place.
God bless you all.

I just started reading this because I am a huge Glenn Beck fan, and I heard for the first time last week that he was a Mormon. I always assumed he was a Christian, I am not saying Mormons are not so do not get your feathers ruffled. I just have always been taught that the Mormons believe in another book in the Bible. I am scared to believe in more than what is in the Old and New Testament because of the warning of false prophets. I have enjoyed hearing Glenn's thoughts and I still like him, I am just not sure about his religious beliefs now. I cannot believe the debate that you all have had about this though. It's crazy how in depth you got, but it has been interesting reading.

As I have made my way through each post in this blog, I am struck by the reoccurring theme of the enlightened writer attempting to bring another to their enlightened understanding. Some of our enlightened writers have suggested that one look at the facts, others have suggested that one consider feelings, and some have suggested that both facts and feelings be mutually considered.

It would appear on the surface that not a lot of headway is being made on either side. In my opinion, discovering the truth is a very personal matter. Although the exchange of ideas plays a critical role in the process of coming to the knowledge of truth, ultimately the actual process of coming to a knowledge of truth is an intensely personal matter.

I believe God would have us bring to bear all of our reasoning powers on the truth discovering process. But there comes that moment when we must individually “trod the winepress alone” as it were (Isaiah 63:3). We must, after having considered all of the arguments, approach God as suggested in James 1:5. Note James states in his general epistle, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.” Now there is nothing wrong with asking Joel or Dallin or Ken, but ultimately the question must be put to God. What does God think? James goes on to say that God will give “to all men liberally, and upbraideth not”. In other words, not only will he not upbraid (criticize) our efforts to come unto Him with a sincere desire to know the truth, but He will be liberal in His response.

This probably explains why no one will become converted to anyone else’s version of the truth in this blog. The most any of us can do is peak the interest of the other to take a course of action that may (according to our view) lead the other to the truth.

But what is the medium by which God communicates to His beloved children (no matter what their religious / cultish or non-religious / non-cultish persuasion). Saint John explains, “But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things” (John 14:26).

Paul explains in his letter to the Galatians what it is like to be taught by the Holy Ghost. He states, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance . . .” That is a long list of feelings to sort through. These cannot be mere passing, whimsical feelings. They must stand the test of time and the harsh realities of life.

So after you have considered all that has been written in the last three years in this blog (if you have been so inclined) and studied sincerely both sides of the issue, your journey toward truth must pass through that sacred, quiet experience (or series of experiences) where you as a humble truth seeking child appeals to a loving Creator for enlightenment.

You will not come to know all God’s truth all at once. But as you study His word meekly and diligently, trying to apply it to your personal life to the best of your ability, he will give you more truth “line upon line, here a little, there little” (Isaiah 28:13).

Does Mormonism pass that kind of intensely personal testing process? Only you can find out.

Jeff's posting on Dec 4th 2006 says it all!

Katie 1-5-07

I am back - I posted something a couple of weeks ago and have been thinking about this blog since then. We now have a Mormon leading the US Senate - Harry Reid. It will be very interesting to see if the religious right will support a Mormon for President - Mitt Romney. When you look at what he stands for it is exactly what most of the other Christian churches stand for too. By reading this blog one can see the negative reaction by some when finding out that Glenn Beck is LDS. Wow! In response to the question are Mormons Christians - I believe they are. I was attending the Second Baptist Church in Houston a few years ago and the Pastor commented that "this church will not make you less of a sinner but it will help you become saved". I questioned these comments to my friend who said "take the Mormons - they lead such wholesome life styles - but they aren't saved because they aren't Christians" My BS meter went off the chart!! Living the teachings of Christ is a major component of being a Christian - good works is a manifestation of one's faith. Accepting him as your Lord and Savior must preceed this change of heart - being born again. I am confident that the so called "born again" Christians do not have a monopoly on being born again. I will vote for a man who has my same values and I think Romney is that person. This next year will be a real test to see if religious tolerance is alive and well in America. I think Glenn Beck is fantastic.

When I discovered that Glenn Beck is LDS I started listening to all his words a little closer. If he can be duped into believing in Mormonism, then he is also easily hoodwinked into conclude wrong on other matters. I don't dislike Glenn Beck, and enjoy some of the things he sais, but I take into consideration that he can be deceived.

Dear EXLDS. It's obvious that somewhere along the way someone in the LDS church offended you. It happens to everyone. That doesn't mean the teachings of the LDS church are not Christian. Try to keep an opent mind okay.

Everybody should read the posting by GB posted Dec 5th. If we could all just keep those thoughts in mind the world would be a much better place.

Challenge: Just read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover to really see what it is like and follow the recommendation at the end. We are all on trial, not the Book of Mormon.

I have to add my name to the list dissapointed GB fans. I have lstened to many hours of your radio show, so I hope you will listen to these short words. If you think I am a nut case and you've heard it all before, then so be it.

I remember you playing the whole Dark Side of the Moon bit mixed with the Gospel a while back. I thought it was a bit frivolous, but I was a huge Floyd fan for years, so I enjoyed it. But I was more pleased to have my own wall come down by the grace of our Lord. I was a relatively new Christian at the time as well. I remember raising my eyebrows when you said you didn't have a problem with Jesus being married as per the Davinci Code. That was my first clue. When I read it shortly after, I thought, 'You've got to be joking!'

I haven't always been able to catch your show, but don't remember you ever saying anything about being a Mormon. I think that is relevant information. I make a point of telling people I am born again so they know what they're dealing with.

I also remember thinking WoW... GB got on at MSNBC! I thought maybe the media was moderating their tone some. Now I see why... You don't believe in absolutes! That makes you a magnificent ally of theirs. In the long run you're no threat to them...

The common thread of these converging philosophies, is a hatred of the concept of absolute truth. A belief that THAT is the problem. Except that born again Christians are extremist nuts. All of you are ''absolutely'' certain about that!

The truth is extreme... just like the universe that declares His glory.

YOu see? the truth is not just a concept. It is alive. He has a name.

You see? There is no escaping the absolute. We're all going to die (as a physical example), and then whatever reality (the truth)turns out to be, it will be absolute.

This whole philosophy of pluralism and it's relativistic counterpart, appears as an 'angel of light' and the 'true solution' for peace to so many now... I beg you to think about it Glen...

Is that philosophy (religion/ worldview)true? Is it 'absolutely' true?

Jesus didn't stutter when he said, 'I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.' It was an extreme position that was consistent wiht His other extreme positions. That's why they crucified Him. People don't crucify those who are harmless. They try to but them off! And He asked them how they were to be saved from the fires of hell.

As one last point, a proffessor at a university told a favorite preacher of mine, 'You are an anachronism. You believe in the concept of truth.'
The professor continued, 'You cannot arrive at the truth!' To which the preacher responded, 'Then how did you arrive at that?'

The same preacher summed up the current climate... 'The West is on the verge of collapse, because it has lost it's ability to reason.'

I hope he does not mind me giving his name. It is Ravi Zacharius. A man so humble and well respected, that he was the first Christain in many decades (since Moody I believe?) to speak at BYU. (not totally sure on those facts, but it's something like that...)

Check him out Glen, before you make up your mind 'absolutely'!

A troubled fan, Rob

Michael Savage�s �Wheel of Religion�

Exclusivity, Choice, and logic.

For those of you familiar with the conservative radio talk show host Michael Savage, you are likely aware of his controversial style. He makes no apologies for his views, and calls things as he sees them. I am personally a fan of Mr. Savages show, and have read one of his books and found it very informative and accurate. In my opinion, he is generally a very clear thinker, who is very logically demanding. But on at least this one issue, he seems to be suffering from what he calls �a mental disorder� (liberalism), and the illogical thinking that flows from it.

Recently, Mr. Savage has spoken quite openly and plainly of his inability to accept religions that claim to be exclusively true. He finds such exclusivity unacceptable, and to a point I agree, as extremism is not in and of itself, a virtue. As a substitute for these offensive and narrow philosophies, he has offered a simple analogy, and he calls it, �The Wheel of Religion�.

He asks his audience to imagine a wheel. And the spokes of that wheel represent the religions of the world and the hub represents God. The premise is simple; all spokes lead to God. And in this way, it is implied, that we should be tolerant of other religious methodologies so as not to claim exclusivity over something that is so deeply personal and treasured in a persons life and culture.

What I want to do here is make three main points:

1. Truth (by definition) is exclusive.
2. The wheel of Life is exclusive.
3. How we choose a coherent worldview.

1. Truth by definition is exclusive. Probably the simplest illustration of this is mathematics. There are an infinite number of numbers available to us conceptually. The largest figure I have heard of is called a �Google�. But the point is that out of all of those possible numbers, only one of them is the correct solution to the problem 1+1+1=y. And the solution to that problem is the number 3. They way we arrive there is with logic.

The main function of the exclusivity of truth is to exclude the incorrect answer or answers. Often the alternative answer is the polar opposite of the solution. When we do so accurately we can, with clear understanding, see the answer and make practical application of the knowledge.

2.� The Wheel of life�, as with all philosophy, excludes alternative solutions to the metaphysical problem that faces all men. If the wheel of life is �the way, and the truth�, then the claim of Jesus Christ, �I am the way, the truth and the life, No man comes to the Father but by me� must be false. And the reason is clear. Jesus said that we can only come to God by Him, and the Wheel of life excludes that solution by saying that we can come to God by any religion we choose.

So, all philosophy is exclusive by definition. There may be overlap and agreement on certain truths within them, but ultimately they divide and become opposed to one another.

3. When choosing a worldview, one must look for coherence. If it is contradictory, then it must be assumed to be false. It is illogical. So when we are offered such a worldview; one that is created with the sole intention of freeing us from exclusivity, then we can immediately recognize the problem. It defeats itself, because it must then claim itself to be �the way, the truth and the life.� That is the nature and inescapable implication of philosophy and truth by definition.

Now this presents an interesting opportunity when deciding what to believe in terms of truth claims. How can we choose at all without excluding something else? So I ask you, �what is wiser to choose�? A worldview which is peddled by men who are unaware of their own claim to exclusivity? Or a worldview that is offered by a man who is fully aware of Himself and makes no apology for the clarity and sufficiency of His providence?

If you make a choice� you will exclude the opposites! If you choose not to choose, then you exclude the possibility of knowing the truth to begin with. And that begs the question, "then how do you know that is true'?

That�s what choice is all about. We have a lot of things available to us in this world, but we certainly would not be wise to choose some of them, or all.

Rob

I hope none of you think I am turning this venue into my own personal blog, but I have 'got to share' this little story.

'DEATH TO EXTREMISTS'

In my travels I get to meet some pretty interesting people. Early this week I was delivering a deck package to a home in Eureka Ca, and one of the guys working on the project has a bumper sticker on the back of his pick-up that says, 'DEATH TO EXTREMISTS'.

I immediately chuckled to myself and after exiting my truck, I spoke to him and explained how much I enjoyed his bumper sticker. He just chuckled himself (somewhat anxiously), not sure exactly what I had meant.

I said, "It's a little 'extreme' though, isn't it"? To which he replied with nervous laughter and said, "Yeah, there's some irony there."

He then went on to explain that some of his family were born-again-Christians and that they were driving him crazy at one time, so being a 'moderate', his wife had the sticker custom made for him. I agree that it is certainly one-of-a-kind.

I asked him, "So you are 'extremely' moderate"?

Again he laughed and said, "No... I am only 'moderately', moderate."

That was about the extent of our conversation. A bit more was said about the philosophical assumptions of the post-modern West, but without discord. I did tell him that I too was born of the Spirit of Christ like his family members, but found the sticker far more honest an admission of the logical extensions of any denunciation of a worldview.

I might have said to him in response to his last statement ("No... I am only ' moderately' moderate") that "That would explain your 'extreme displeasure' with extremism", but I did not think of it so quickly.

I could tell that he had come to understand the dilemma (and not in terms of irony, but 'contradiction'), and that his acidic cynicism was waning over time.

He wanted to speak more with me, I could tell. And I also would have loved to sit down and discuss these things in detail. He was seeking answers (cautiously), but we both were in a rush to get back to our responsibilities with work.

Anyway, there's no sense in pushing people who are beginning to see the light (of reason). Once they understand that their beliefs contain violent contradictions, it's only a matter of time.

Ps. It reminds me... Do you know what the 'fundamental' problem with this world is?

Fundamentalism! :)

Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

Wow. if knowing Glenn Beck is a mormon makes you feel "dissapointed", what does that say about you? You act as if he was beating his wife or molesting children. It shows that you care far more about a man's theology than his deeds. That is hardly the sttitude of the Torah. I noticed that someone posted a link to IRR. Here is the otherside of the story: farms@byu.edu

I have read almost this entire book of a blog and find interesting points. The fact that this is about GB seems lost a bit.

I categorize the people here in three basic camps. Catholics, Mormons and Protestants.

Protestants came about because they searched for the lost true religion. They agree with Mormon theology that the Church was lost and corrupted... but I don't undersand their claim to real authority... where did it come from? How are they any different than any guy just up and saying they have the truth? This is why there are hundreds of protestant religions out there who don't agree with one another. This utter confusion naturally gives rise to the beliefe that it doesn't matter what church.. only that you believe and accept Christ... which is a relatively new doctrine completely refuted by all scripture... unless of course you pluck a few scriptures and ignore the rest.

It would seem that many of the arguments against Mormonism come from a Catholic basis. Arguments are made about a deep study of quotations of Mormon leaders and writings to come to a conclusion that it is a false religion.

Have any of these same individuals made the same study of thier respective religions... especially Catholicism?

I have met very few Catholics who do not cower in shame at their own history. Read about the immense procession of non-biblical teachings... Simply read about the Inquisition period. Go read the history of Latin America. Learn how whoredoms are explained away. Read about the Crusades... Nicea and Constantine... how the Church came to be in Rome... How Saints began... Perversion of sacraments... Indulgences... Intercession...
Infant Baptism...
Just read a good history of Martin Luther...

How anyone can think the Church founded by Christ was not lost for a time is beyond me. I cannot understand how a reasonable individual can conclude that the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages carried the torch of the church Christ founded. It had not a shaddow of what was founded. There were great splits and times with multiple Popes. I am not here to cast stones, only to remind those living in glass houses about casting stones. You cannot explain away one person's beliefes without looking at your own.

Anyone not endoctrinated with the beliefe that the New Testament is all that is needed and is complete is puzzling. They site the scriptures that say some version of "anyone that adds to this or changes it is condemned." What was the author referring to as "this"? Any writer who wrote this could not possibly be referring to the New Testament, as it did not exist yet... these were letters and individual writings and surely John did not mean Paul's writings were condemned... nor did he fathom Paul's writings would be compiled with his own. The complition took place years later. Surely, the authors universally referred to the general statement of anyone adding their own doctrine (ie not Christ's) would be condemned.

If the New Testament is all we need... what of the Billions of people who had never even heard the name of Jesus, much less his gospel? What of those who died without an opportunity accept the Gospel? Are they going to hell?

Are those who were force-baptized saved? What about an infant... who has absolutely no shaddow of a clue about what is happening?

What about those who explain this away by saying the new doctrine that Baptism is no longer required... or never was. I think Jeses himself would have something to say about that. "Except a man be bourne of the Water and the Spirit, he CANNOT enter the Kingdom of God"... or is that an optional scripture?

Was there really an Ark and a flood? Did Adam and Eve really live? Why was it OK for the Israelites to slaughter every man, woman, child, goat, sheep etc?

Do you agree with some things the scriptures say and not others? Do you explain this away by saying the Old Testament is "fulfilled" and therefor needs no understanding or explaining?

Do you believe God operates differently now than he has in all recorded scripture?

Is religion an amorphous thing that is just explained with the words "accept Jeses"?

Do your works matter after you have started on the path? Can you be forgiven and saved simply by raising your hands and attending church?

If the Lord looks on the heart, does the Lord ignore your works?

I won't give the answers to these questions to you... that is a personal journey between you and your maker. I can say that an open mind and heart are required to find truth.

And... there must be only a single truth. You cannot have groups teaching different things and have them both right.

Either you believe the Catholic church is Christ's church and was never lost and Christ looked the other way for 1,000 years or it is not his church and was founded by men.

Either you find out if Joseph Smith really was a prophet and restored Christ's church or the Mormon church is false.

Either you accept the amorphous doctrines of one of the protestant churches and accept that much of scripture is unexplainable or you look elsewhere.

The knowledge and acceptance of Jesus cannot be all there is either... as every Devil and fallen angel can profess.

The fact is, if you believe in Christ at all... and hence are Christian, you know the truth is out there and cannot be in two or three versions. It is obviously more than a feeling. It must be scripturally based. It must involve more than a few words crossing our lips. Works must matter somehow.

Find the truth through prayer and honest seeking!

The problem with people that say Mormons are a cult, or that Mormons are not Christian, or that Mormons worship a different Jeses, is that they have NEVER did HONEST RESEARCH on what Mormon doctrine and beliefs really are. They just believe what other people tell them or what they read about Mormons from people that dislike or even hate the LDS religion.

There is a reason God gave us 2 eyes and 2 ears but only one mouth, some here would do well to remember that.

Revelation 22:18-19
"And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears he prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone removes any of the words of this prophetic book, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book." Then, two verses later, the Bible ends.

When He ascended into heaven, the angel asked the apostles what they were looking at. He said that Jesus would return the very way He left... in the clouds. That automatically rules out Jesus appearing in the Americas as Joseph Smith proclaimed. (and which there is absolutely NO verifiable archeological evidence of His appearance in the Americas).

NEWS FLASH! ALL PREVIOUS CLOUD COVERS OVER AMERICA HAVE BEEN FIGMENTS OF YOUR IMAGINATION!

..In reference to Rev. 22: 18-19.

True, the New Testament ends two verses after that scripture.... the problem is that most of the New Testament was written after that verse was written. You would have to invalidate most of the New Testament if you think it is talking about books. It was clearly referring to the book of Revelation... not the New Testament or any other books they will come forth in the future.

And where is the archaelogical evidence Jesus lived in the Middle East? The only reference outside of Catholic sources is Josephus, and archaelogists look at his writings with skepticism to begin with. The only evidence we have of His appearance in America is Scripture.

If you were familiar with the Book of Mormon you would know that he did return descending from Heaven to show himself to the "other sheep" referred to by John 10:16. Christ brought salvation to all men, not just Jews

Glenn Beck rocks. It's about time someone expressed their opinions as just that, opinions. He is so much more real than career politicos and their commentators.

As for the Mormon thing, get a life, we'll find out when we die.

Amen to Holly's post......Satan has been able to dupe most of the public into believing into all types of Religions....All paths do lead to God but ONLY ONE to Heaven. The Mormons have done great job into duping thousands of people into believing 1800 years after the last Gospel was wrote that yet another one poped up threw a vision from Joseph threw the Angel Satan....ooops did I say Satan, how do you know it wasnt from him!!!!!!!!!If he was to appear in front of you right now you would drop to the groud and probably worship him!!!!!I just can't believe a critical thinker like Glen Beck would fall for this fake article of Jesus Christ when the real Jesus Christ is staring him in the face......So the Word says I will have Mercy on those who I choose to have Mercy!!!

Before you try to turn the heat up on me....Look inside your own heart.

A. Are you truly following Christ, are you taking up his Cross daily.

B. Are you guarding your eyes, your ears, your mouth.

C. Are serving God with all your heart with all your might.

D. Are you serving others, homeless, down and out, abused and in need.

E. Are you reading Gods Word daily, are you praying daily not just for yourself but others, are you keeping your mind and heart filled with things that are pleasing to God threw out the day.

F. Finally do you know you are ONLY saved by Grace threw our Christ Jesus Great Mercy and on what he did on the Cross, do you even have a chance of going to Heaven....Not by any works that I could posibly do could earn me into Heaven....The Works are a reflection and the fruit of my beliefe in Christ....Faith with out works is dead...not Works with out faith!!!

Wow! I can't believe I read all of this! It became very clear to me as I was reading, though, that the tone of all the posts coming from Mormon authors was far more Christian than that of the posts coming from all the so-called Christian or born again authors. Never did the Mormon posts seek to belittle, offend, or convince, they simply offered honest rebuttal, sincere opinion, and clear personal witnesses of deeply held belief. Whereas about half of the other posts condemned either Mormons in general, Glen Beck personally, or the Mormon authors personally. It seems that the Mormons have proven more Christian than the Christians just through their posts. Interesting! (They also seem to spell better.)

Mattew 7: 13-14 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
My question to you Matt is which gate are you walking threw? And does your life and the way you live reflect it?

P.S. If you like I will pray for you.

If you were to die today by the hands of a crazed gunmen or car crash. Could you say with out a doubt I am going to heaven? And why do you think so?

Eric, I appreciate your prayers, and your irony, (?walking threw?) but you have simply added evidence to the point that I was making. I love you as a fellow child of God, and I only hope that you will do the same for me. I also hope that you will do so without alluding that I will go to some place other than heaven simply because my brand of Christianity is not the same as yours. Christ alone will be the judge of both the quick and the dead. I hope you are not trying to take over his job. Notice that none of the Mormon authors have judged, condemned or hinted at condemning any of the other authors simply because such other authors were not Mormon.

To Eric and everyone who reads this, Please find below

GLENN BECK'S CONVERSION STORY IN HIS OWN WORDS: (as reported in Meridian Magazine)

After graduating from high school, he moved to Salt Lake where he lived with a returned missionary, a move that those who loved him hoped would rehabilitate him. With his powerful, charismatic personality, ?instead,? he said, ?I was turning the returned missionary to the dark side.?

Next, he moved to Washington D.C. and partnered with a news guy who was also a Latter-day Saint. ?I fell into the wrong crowd again,? he said, ?and I found myself out of work.?

Next, it was on to Corpus Christi, Texas, to work on the radio, where the station?s general manager was a member of the Church. ?That was the third Mormon, I?d worked with in a row,? he said, ?in a business that doesn?t have that many members of the Church.?

Still, he didn?t join the Church, nor have any interest in it. ?I thought they were freaks,? he said. ?They couldn?t drink. They couldn?t smoke?and that?s what I liked doing.?

Glenn was still young and drifting. The next stop was Baltimore, Maryland where he worked for a year and a half with a writer on a show who backed out five days before it was to begin.

?I had a show starting in five days. I needed somebody with some significant writing talent to help me. I called everybody I knew and finally a friend said he knew a man, Pat Gray, from Salt Lake City who can help you. Pat was also LDS. Glenn hired him, and notes, ?We were best friends by the time we left the airport.?

Glenn and Pat worked together ten years. ?I was a flaming alcoholic,? he said. ?I was a ?screwed up? individual. I was very successful when I was very young, and it made me a monster. My slogan was, ?I have people.? I once fired a guy for bringing me the wrong kind of pen to sign autographs.?

Yet Glenn loved his LDS friend and watched him closely, dumbfounded that a Latter-day Saint could live with what he considered such impossible standards.

?I actually wanted him desperately to fail, to prove that you couldn?t live the way he lived. But his family grew and prospered?But I had no interest.?

A Rough Ride

Life continued to be a rough ride for Glenn. ?I lost everything I had. I lost all of my money. I was working in the smallest market ever.? He wanted answers about the meaning of existence, because it felt meaningless to him.

He was accepted to go to school at Yale to study theology, but to him his studies multiplied his questions and gave no answers.

Pat Gray called him up periodically and said, ?If you want some answers, I have some for you,? but Glenn only replied, ?I?ve heard your answers before. ?

?No, you haven?t,? Pat answered.

?I can?t follow your lifestyle,? Glenn announced.

Then came ?a whole amazing series of events,? said Glenn. He met Tania, a wonderful woman who was a Catholic and they fell in love. When he hinted that he was going to propose, she said, ?I?m not going to marry you if you don?t have religion.? He told her that religion was about control, manipulation, power and greed. ?I can?t do it.?

The Church Tour

Yet he loved her and since Catholicism wasn?t really working for her, they began what Glenn calls, ?the church tour.? ?Would you find a church with me?? she asked. ?We?ll go to everything and anything,? he agreed.

?We began at ?A? and worked our way down and we weren?t impressed with anything, though it did seem cool to be Jewish,? he joked. To those meetings he also took his two daughters from a former marriage.

Once in a while his Latter-day Saint friend would call?his best friend for ten years?and he?d say, ?You owe it to me to go one time to my Church.

?I?m never going to become a Mormon,? he said. ?You guys are freaks.?

Finally, Glenn agreed to go, but when he found out it was a three-hour block on Sundays he responded, ?Are you out of your mind? You get one hour just like everybody else.?

That Sunday, Glenn, Tania and the girls went to Church and ?we were greeted by a guy whom we called ?the amazing Mr. Plastic Man. ? This guy had to be the happiest guy on the planet. He said, ?I am so happy you are here. He seemed to love us and I thought, ?I barely like myself, how can you possibly love me???

After sacrament meeting, Glenn and his family started to make their way to the door to leave, but, he said, ?Pat had called the Mormon Squad in and said, ?Don?t let them leave.? Cornered, the Becks went to a Gospel Essentials Sunday School class and something astonishing happened.

Somebody raised his hand and asked a real question, saying, ?This doesn?t make sense to me.?

?I was flabbergasted,? said Glenn. ?This is a place where you can ask real questions and if something doesn?t make sense to you, you can acknowledge that? I realized you can ask real questions here and they had answers that I couldn?t find at Yale.

?So I thought, I?ve got a real question, and we?ll be out of here in five minutes. I raised my hand and said, ?Where?s Gandhi?? It was a question, of course, designed to skewer the teacher, because Glenn knew full well that most of the churches he had attended thought Gandhi was in hell.

?I was reaching for my car keys at this point,? said Glenn, but the teacher said, ?Who in the class would like to answer that??

A class member explained the teaching of the gospel in the spirit world and baptism for the dead. ?Wow,? said Glenn. ?I can live with that. What a bigger concept that is than I?ve ever heard before.?

Glenn and his family left church that day, and his daughter who has cerebral palsy said, ?Dad, can we go back there next week??

?Why?? asked Glenn to this child whom he knew had been particularly connected to spiritual things since she was a little child.

She answered, ?Because I feel so warm inside. It just feels so good here.?

Study and Conversion

The family decided that they would continue to go to church until they found some reason not to, and Glenn began studying intently, as he said, ?turning this thing upside down and trying to find a reason not to go.?

He continued to feel great about the Church, and his voice shook with tearful emotion and testimony as he got to this part of his story. About six months later, he was sitting in a priesthood meeting taught by ?the amazing Mr. Plastic Man,? who was talking about the concept of Zion, a place where people lived together in peace and harmony and without want, working for each other. ?How could this happen?? asked the teacher. ?There is only one way.? The teacher got tears in his eyes as he said it. ?It is if you truly love me and I truly love you, and with everyone we meet we look for that spirit in them that we can love.?

Glenn said, ?I realized that the ?amazing Mr. Plastic Man? was the most loving person I had ever met in my life. I told myself, ?If it is Kool-Aid these people are drinking, I?m drinking it, because I want to be that kind of person.??

Glenn?s best friend, Pat Gray, baptized him, choking with such emotion he could hardly get the words out.

?Every step of the way I had tested the Lord? said Glenn, ?but I had gotten to the point that I couldn?t carry this load anymore. I said to the Lord, ?I want to be a different person, but I can?t do it alone. I am accepting this gospel 110%. Please help me get rid of all of this poison in my soul.? And He has.

?The sacrament has a totally different meaning to me than most people. A lot of people take it and it?s just a ritual. From time to time I can still feel the wounds inside of me, and when I partake, it is the renewing I need. It has truly been miraculous.

?The best decision I ever made is the one I fought for 15 years.?

New Job

That was three years ago when Glenn and his family were baptized and his whole life changed. He had been trying for two years to get a job in talk radio and couldn?t get anybody to pay attention to him. ?I had been looking for an agent and couldn?t find one, and I didn?t have a plan,? he said.

The day after he was baptized, an agent called from New York, saying ?I hear you are looking for somebody to represent you.? As the conversation progressed, he asked if Glenn knew Gabe Hobbs, the president of programming at Clear Channel radio. At that instant, the call-waiting signal indicated Glenn had another call. He answered it to find it was Gabe Hobbs. When he came back to talk to his would-be agent and told him who had called, the agent said, ?That seems to be a gift from heaven.?

?Yeah, it sure was,? said Glenn.

Glenn was offered a radio talk show and debuted in 2000 on WFLA-AM in Tampa, Florida. ?The show that I inherited was in 18th place,? and he laughs ruefully, ? and then it rocketed to 21st.? Within one year of his doing his first talk show during the afternoon drive, The Glenn Beck Program gave the station its first #1 program ever. Things exploded from there and Clear Channel offered him the dream job?radio syndication originating from Tampa.

Yet, the move to Florida meant he was away from his daughters who lived in Philadelphia with his first wife, and he had promised them that he wouldn?t stay away longer than two years. What?s more a CBS radio station offered him a job in Philadelphia. Tania and Glenn prayed intently, certain that they needed to live in Philadelphia.

Glenn?s Florida employers wondered, ?What is it going to take for you to accept this job as syndicated talk show host?? He told them it wasn?t negotiating for more money, but he had to work in Philadelphia. All they must do to cinch a contract with him was to build a station there.

Glenn said, ?I wanted that job so badly I could taste it, but the Philadelphia job with CBS seemed the only alternative so I could be with my daughters. Tania and I went to the temple, each praying about our future, and I said to the Lord that if He wanted me to do anything differently than go with CBS and pass up this syndication job, he would have to shout it at me.

In the temple, the answer was clearly given, ?shouted? at Glenn??Clear Channel.? To make the answer even clearer, he couldn?t remember the name of the radio station that he was sure he would go with in Philadelphia. The name ?CBS? completely eluded him.

Within two years of the day he had started in Tampa, he was back in Philadelphia at a station built for him, originating his syndicated show and keeping his promise to his children. ?In that first year, we were hoping to have about 20 stations and not lose money hand over first,? said Glenn, but instead in that first year his program soared to 80 stations and by 18 months was on 115 stations, including major stations in Washington D.C., New York, Atlanta and Dallas.

Show Contents

Why do people flock to hear Glenn Beck? He said its because, ?I?m me, flaws and all. They come because my show is honest. I?m not afraid of my past. I?m not afraid of the mistakes I?ve made. I?m as real as I can be. I?m not somebody on a crusade.?

He talks about politics; he talks about principles ?but not in a religious sense.? People who listen to his show don?t necessarily know he?s a Latter-day Saint, but he says, ?I don?t hide it either.?

He tells the story of one time in Florida where he was talking about religion and somebody shot at him, ?What religion are you??

He said, ?I remember pausing on the air, and thinking, if I say I?m a Mormon, what kind of damage will that do to my career?? Then he thought, ?Who care?s I?m saying it.?

Again tearfully, he said, ?It didn?t occur to me what kind of damage I could do to the Church, with anything I said. As I grew in the Spirit, I came to regret that moment of thinking that I was so important.?

Glenn?s staff laughs at what they call his Mormon code, the principles he teaches that he learned at Church. He also admits that when you are on the air three hours a day, you make mistakes. ?I am very grateful that I have several wonderful bishops in my stake who have no problem shooting me an email and saying that I?ve made a mistake. They help me an awful lot without judging me.?

Glenn?s show is funny. With his candor, passion and sarcasm he pushes his listener?s buttons. When he addresses serious issues, he often provides an historical framework. ?I lean conservative, (not Republican)? he said. ?You can?t fit me into a category.? What makes his show particularly winning is that he espouses wholesome values, however, with a comedic, in-your-face edge. His website sports an ?End of the World? page that is part funny, part serious with sections like ?Wars and Rumors of Wars.?

Beck will also express his strong opinions by using fictitious characters. For instance, when the ?under God? line of the Pledge of Allegiance was judged unconstitutional, creating a national debate, Beck played the part of Bill Rogers, president of The People for the Ethical Treatment of People, who took the issue one step further. Rogers (Beck) accused Beck of oppressing all atheists because Beck supports the use of ?under God? in the Pledge. As they (Beck with himself) engaged in an argument over the issue, Rogers said his organization is forging ahead to eliminate ?in God we trust? from all money and the word ?God? from all church signs. He further advocated that the word dog be changed because it spells ?God? backwards.

People love Glenn Beck; they are taken and moved by him, and now he can say wholeheartedly, that he loves them, too. It?s a place he never thought he?d find in his life until he found what he was looking for?the God who loves him.

Hi Matt,

Great Story on Glen Beck. I appreciate your politeness in your response. I have many good friends who are Mormons, and I love them dearly. I want to relay a few scriptures that came to me through my searching the Word, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Please help me if I'm misunderstanding God's intentions in His Word. First, (1 Corinthians 1:10)
"Now I plead with you, bretheren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisons among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement."
It seems that the Book of Mormon seperates God's Children. Instead of bringing unity to us in the Body of Christ.

Secondly, (Galatians 1:6-12)
"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the Grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have recieved, let him be accursed. For do I now presuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservent of Christ. But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither revieved it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."
This is where I have a problem with the vision of the founding forefather of the Mormons. Since It took place 1800 years after the last gospel was written. Once again, even If an angel from heaven added to this gospel, "let him be accursed."
Finally, Revelation 22:18-19 makes it very problematic for me to accept the Book of Mormon.
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Then verse 20 says "surely I am coming quickly" then the book ends. "Amen"

Matt, I pray this Word strikes a chord in your heart, your sould, and your spirit. I say this with true sincerity. I already love you as a brother and hope that His Spirit will openly reveal himself to you.

Sincerely, Eric

p.s. I hope my spelling was a little better this time, hooked aun fonics wurkd 4 Me!

Good morning Brother Matt, I hope everything is alright. I normally would not do this (especially on a Post) but here is my number if you would like to talk (949)228-0755 or need prayer.

Mormonism is far from Christianity. Mormons are NOT Christians. The Book of Mormon is NOT the word of God.

I have nothing against mormons as people. However, they are confused in their thinking.

Hi Megan, God has been greatly working in my life, especially in the area's of evangelism. He has been teaching me to evangelize in love. Jesus did not come preaching condemnation he came preaching a gospel of love and salvation. You know the two greatest commandments......At the same time I am not defending the book of Mormon, I am defending the way we should go about preaching to our brothers and sisters. Example: When I am out on the street and I walk up to someone, do I start off by telling them they are going to Hell if they don't believe in Jesus Christ and follow after him....God forbid I would not have any one to talk to!!!! Of coarse I am not saying not to tell them where they are going if they don't believe in Christ, tell them out of love not jugment most people already know where they are going.....It is our mission to know and preach the same Gospel that Christ preached. My point is don't just tell someone they are wrong be able to them the why and the how in love. Meagan you have a great day and may our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Greatly Bless Your Life.

Just a note on what a true Church is.. The true Church is all those who are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. It has nothing to do with the sign on the door. I believe that eventually the true Church will be treated like a false Church.. while the rest of the world will be in the true Cult. The false religious system found in the book of Revelation.

The fact that a man like Glen is intelligent does not mean that everything he thinks is true. Humans are rational by nature, but are easily given to falsehood and illusion. Whether or not Mormonism is true must be shown on its own merits and not on the merits of the people who ascribe to it.

Cult-definition summarized= a group of people bound by a belief (usually religious) setting them apart from the mainstream.
Because mainstream is the current, prevailing belief or opinion; by definition Mormonism is a cult. By this definition, only one belief system is mainstream. Which system will vary depending on the current opinion of society. Currently Christianity as a whole holds the numbers to relegate all others to the definition of cult. This will change in the "Last Days".
I fit under the ever widening umbrella of Christian and hold no denomination as my own. My belief can best be described as a Young Earth Creationist. 7-24 hour days less than 10k years. There are many similarities between Christians and Mormons. Place the ideal neighborhood of each side by side and you would notice little social difference. There are scriptural differences. Re 22:18 I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book... Clearly the addition of any words (such as the Book of Mormon) is not acceptable to God. There are many other differences, but this one eliminates the need of further discussion. Either the Bible is correct or it is not. The Bible is written (inspired by God with hands of Man) in a manner that allows only two options; it is The Complete Truth or entirely a lie. As for Mr. Beck or any other Mormon, I think we can stand shoulder to shoulder on politics regarding our belief systems.

Revelation Chapter 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Response to Larry who posted on May 10, 2007 at 10:00am
Your use of Chapter 22 of the Book of Revelations was used incorrectly. By your understanding of this Chapter we would have to throw out almost all of the words from the Apostles. When Revelations was written there was no Bible, it had not been organized yet. It would not be organized until hundreds of years after the death of Christ and the Apostles. The Bible is not in Chronological order, but rather it is arranged by the length of each book. For example, Revelations was written before the book of Luke. According to your understanding of chapter 22 of Revelations we would have to throw away the book of Luke because it was written after Revelations. When John wrote Revelation and stated “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book” he is giving warning to any man who attempts to add to the Book of Revelation. Many of the Books in the Bible, including ACTS, LUKE, and many others were written after Revelation. Just because Revelation is the last Book in the Bible does not mean it was the last Book written. The Most important part of Christian and Mormon doctrine is that it is centered in Christ. There are some obvious differences, but why are people always focusing on the differences and not focusing on what they have in common, that they both believe that Christ is the Savior of all man kind.

Hi Dennis lets do our research before we start thowing out dates....Luke was written between 50-65AD Revelation was written between 95-96AD. 99% of the schoolars would agree that the entire New Testament was written between 45-150AD. The Book of Mormon was written almost 1800 years later (BIG DIFFERENCE)Just becasue the cannon of the scriptures were not assembeld until hundreads of years later it has nothing to do with when they were written.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The New Testament (Greek: Καινή Διαθήκη, Kainē Diathēkē), sometimes called the Greek Testament or Greek Scriptures, and sometimes also New Covenant � which is the literal translation of the original Greek � is the name given to the final portion of the Christian Bible, written after the Old Testament. The original texts were written in Koine Greek by various authors after c. 45 AD and before c. 140 AD. Its books were gradually collected into a single volume over a period of several centuries. The New Testament is a central element of Christianity, and has played a major role in shaping modern Western culture.

My issue is not with my Mormon brothers it is with their polluted doctrine of the Gospel. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was pretty serious about what would happen to you are any one who would ad to or take from his gospel!!!!!!! He was also very serious about what he would do to any one spreading false doctrine. My hope and prayer for you Dennis is that the Holy Spirit would reveal to you the one and only true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Good afternoon my Mormon brothers, I have a question I want to ask! Suppose I got into trouble with the law here in California and left because I had a few warrants for my arrest. I move to New Mexico up in the mountains. After a month of being alone I have this vision in my cabin from Michael the Ark Angel who gives me a new revelation from Jesus Christ a new gospel. I then start to preach it to everyone that lives on the mountain and begin to have a huge following everyone loves this church it is very appealing and everyone there is so happy and great to be around. However I have many skeptics that are from other parts of New Mexico. Well finally I pass away and a hundred years go by but the church I left standing decides to send out missionaries to preach this new and exciting revelation of Jesus Christ to whole world. In time my new church even starts to affiliate itself with the Christian communities and churches???DO YOU BELIVE IN MY CHURCH??? Honestly search the scriptures and tell me what the Word of God has to say about my new church!!! I pray that the Holy Spirit will lift your blindness, I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes, I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your ears, I pray the Holy Spirit will give you the power and might to see through the great deception that has been put before you and finally I pray that the Holy Spirit would open your heart to the true real gospel of Jesus Christ the Holy Bible and only the Holy Bible.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

To Eric Farmer.
You just proved my point. And I will quote you Luke was written between 50-65AD Revelation was written between 95-96AD That was my point, maybe I should have put it in more elementary terms. Secondly, I made no mention of the Book of Mormon.
Do you think I am Mormon? Did I say I was Mormon? Our brother in Christ miss used that Chapter in Revelations; he needed to be corrected not for the sake of Mormons, but for the sake of understanding the Bible. Are you surprised that Criticism maybe coming from a fellow Christian? Here is my beef. As Christians we need to be more Christ like. For as many holes that you believe you can find in Mormon doctrine the same holes can be found in Christian doctrine. I have believed in Jesus all my life and have belonged to more than one Christian denomination. Why? Because my Christian beliefs have changed as I have matured and studied. I will give you $100 if you can find two Christian Churchs that line up 100 percent in beliefs and doctrine. So, It is okay not to believe in Joseph Smith, its okay to question Mormonism, but it is not okay to attack the Mormons with vile and anger. I have seen too many of our Christian brothers and sisters become obsessed with the Mormons and their hearts turn to anger and bitterness, that?s not what being a Christian is about. We are supposed to love thy neighbor as thyself. Do you know any Mormons? They are good people with good hearts. We live in a time when good people with good hearts should not be attacked. There are so many bad people with bad hearts that we should be more worried about. I am more worried about what my children are watching on TV than the local Mormons. Where I live I see Mormons helping the poor, feeding the hungry, and serving their fellow neighbor. I dont have a problem with that, do you? And if you do, you need to ask yourself if your heart is in the right place. Christ loves each of us the same and in the end he will forgive us for our mistakes, do you not believe that he will also forgive the Mormons? If Christ will not forgive Mormons we are all in trouble. I am sure my Christian beliefs are different than yours; we attend different Churches with different beliefs. Yours may preach faith, mine may preach grace, who is the judge in the end? What if your Church was right and mine wrong? Or vice versa? All I am saying is those without sin may cast the first stone.
Dennis

To Eric Farmer.
Also, be careful of what you say. Your analogy of moving to Mexico was horrible. The way in which you are attacking the Mormons and Joseph Smith is the same way that the Non believing Jews attacked Moses and the Sadducees and Pharisees attack Jesus. Have you not learned anything from reading the Bible? The very same way you are attacking the Mormons is the very same way the enemies of Jesus attacked him. As a Christian, you should be better than that. Raise the bar, live and act to a higher standard. If you are truly a believer in Jesus and the Bible you will act like it. I told you, I have seen many of our fellow Christians fall by the way side because of this kind of attitude.
Dennis

Wow Dennis are you sure your not Mormon��the question was posed to Mormon Brothers or should I have been more clear�..and lets be specific brother it was New Mexico if we are going tit for tat��how silly is your criticism. Once again I have nothing against Mormons I have a problem with there polluted doctrine dragging weaker vessels and non-believers into it���Who are you to criticize my faith in Christ what a fool you are Dennis, have you not learned anything from reading the Bible!!! My life is completely centered around Christ and even as I write this already I pray that the Holy Spirit will strike an accord in your heart NOT to be so quick to defend a doctrine that may later come back to haunt your soul for eternity!!!!!!! I associate myself to the TRUE doctrine of Jesus Christ the HOLY BIBLE if you can�t handle that I suggest you find a new relationship perhaps with BUDDA or something you have more knowledge in and can understand. I have already presented these scriptures earlier so I will present them TO YOU!!! since NO ONE AT THIS POST HAS BEEN ABLE TO GIVE A CLEAR ANSWER TO!!!!!!!!!!!
I have many good friends who are Mormons, and I love them dearly. I want to relay a few scriptures that came to me through my searching the Word, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Please help me if I'm misunderstanding God's intentions in His Word. First, (1 Corinthians 1:10)
"Now I plead with you, bretheren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisons among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement."
It seems that the Book of Mormon seperates God's Children. Instead of bringing unity to us in the Body of Christ.
Secondly, (Galatians 1:6-12)
"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the Grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have recieved, let him be accursed. For do I now presuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservent of Christ. But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither revieved it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."
This is where I have a problem with the vision of the founding forefather of the Mormons. Since It took place 1800 years after the last gospel was written. Once again, even If an angel from heaven added to this gospel, "let him be accursed."
Finally, Revelation 22:18-19 makes it very problematic for me to accept the Book of Mormon.
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Then verse 20 says "surely I am coming quickly" then the book ends. "Amen"

Be very careful how you answer this Dennis and whom your defending God is listening and we will give an account for everything we say!!!

Why did you suggest I leave my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and follow Buddha? That makes no sense coming from a Christian. That is not something Christ would have me do, what kind of Christian are you? You call me a fool and suggest defending the Mormons will haunt my soul for eternity! No, I believe in Jesus Christ and that he died for all our sins and that we may be forgiven of our sins don�t you? So, if I have made a mistake, I will be forgiven. You once again have shown me the path you are on. You are preaching to a believer. "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." I love this scripture, but I am sorry to tell you my friend that I have never found a Christian Church in this Country that agreed one with another. I have been apart of several, all with many divisions. Actually, since the death of Christ there has never been agreement between Christians. From Catholics to Orthodox to Protestants, to Baptists and Born against to non denominations to Episcopal to Evangelical. I could go on�.Who is saved? Are they all saved or just one of them and if they are all Saved then why not the Mormons? Who is right and who is wrong? And since you mentioned it what about the Buddhists? Or how about Muslims? How about the Jehovah Witnesses? The Amish? What about the people who live in Countries with no Bible? Or how about the people who do not know how to read? Maybe it is just you Eric; maybe you�re the only one saved because you are the only one who understands Gods will. You want to talk about corrupted doctrine, point to any Church and it is there for the picking. Look at the two of us, both Christians totally disagreeing. Is one of us right and one wrong? Or are we both right and both wrong? Is one of us saved and the other not? By the way, I still have not mentioned the Book of Mormon, you did. I see a pattern; you are on the path, the anti Mormon path. Give heed my friend and get off, it will destroy you. Over the years I have known many who have gone down that path and now belong to no Church, they became so obsessed about the Mormons they fell away from their own beliefs. Finally, you interpret the Bible how you want bending and twisting to fit what you want to believe. According to you the only people saved are the people you think should be saved rather than the parameters Christ has set in the scriptures. When I did I hope to go to Heaven and when I get I believe I will see people of all religions including Mormons. Why you ask? Because Christ is the Savior all and is loving, kind, and forgives us of our mistakes. I am sorry Eric, when you told me to go follow Buddha you lost me. I have no confidence in anything you say. You quote the Bible as if you are the commander and chief of it, but what you lack most is sincerity and you lack this because you have an agenda, an agenda to prove Mormons wrong. Your charge is not to be Christ like, but to bring contention and contention is of the devil. I will no longer be responding to you, you showed your true colors when you told me to follow Buddha and called me a fool. The road to prove Mormons wrong will only further build the contention in your heart for not only their doctrine, but for them as people. This road destroys individuals.

Why did you suggest I leave my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and follow Buddha? That makes no sense coming from a Christian. That is not something Christ would have me do, what kind of Christian are you? You call me a fool and suggest defending the Mormons will haunt my soul for eternity! No, I believe in Jesus Christ and that he died for all our sins and that we may be forgiven of our sins don?t you? So, if I have made a mistake, I will be forgiven. You once again have shown me the path you are on. You are preaching to a believer. "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." I love this scripture, but I am sorry to tell you my friend that I have never found a Christian Church in this Country that agreed one with another. I have been apart of several, all with many divisions. Actually, since the death of Christ there has never been agreement between Christians. From Catholics to Orthodox to Protestants, to Baptists and Born against to non denominations to Episcopal to Evangelical. I could go on?.Who is saved? Are they all saved or just one of them and if they are all Saved then why not the Mormons? Who is right and who is wrong? And since you mentioned it what about the Buddhists? Or how about Muslims? How about the Jehovah Witnesses? The Amish? What about the people who live in Countries with no Bible? Or how about the people who do not know how to read? Maybe it is just you Eric; maybe you?re the only one saved because you are the only one who understands Gods will. You want to talk about corrupted doctrine, point to any Church and it is there for the picking. Look at the two of us, both Christians totally disagreeing. Is one of us right and one wrong? Or are we both right and both wrong? Is one of us saved and the other not? By the way, I still have not mentioned the Book of Mormon, you did. I see a pattern; you are on the path, the anti Mormon path. Give heed my friend and get off, it will destroy you. Over the years I have known many who have gone down that path and now belong to no Church, they became so obsessed about the Mormons they fell away from their own beliefs. Finally, you interpret the Bible how you want bending and twisting to fit what you want to believe. According to you the only people saved are the people you think should be saved rather than the parameters Christ has set in the scriptures. When I die I hope to go to Heaven and when I get I believe I will see people of all religions including Mormons. Why you ask? Because Christ is the Savior all and is loving, kind, and forgives us of our mistakes. I am sorry Eric, when you told me to go follow Buddha you lost me. I have no confidence in anything you say. You quote the Bible as if you are the commander and chief of it, but what you lack most is sincerity and you lack this because you have an agenda, an agenda to prove Mormons wrong. Your charge is not to be Christ like, but to bring contention and contention is of the devil. I will no longer be responding to you, you showed your true colors when you told me to follow Buddha and called me a fool. The road to prove Mormons wrong will only further build the contention in your heart for not only their doctrine, but for them as people. This road destroys individuals.

You say there is no unity in the body of Christ not so if you are serious about giving me a $100.00 for every church I can list that has 100% identical doctrine you better be ready to back it up Calvary Chapel is one of the largest body of Christ that has close over a thousand churches all preaching a nonlegalistic view and saved by grace doctrine.
You crack me up you yourself started off attacking Larry with an incorrect view STATING in YOUR WORDS that the book of Revelation was not the last book and that Luke was written after it!!!!!!
�Your own Words�. For example, Revelations was written before the book of Luke����then you continue to attack me saying that�s not what you said and maybe you should have put it in elementary terms!!!!!!!!
Then you continue to attack me telling my analogy of New Mexico was horrible!!!! Let me ask you was it horrible because it hit a raw bone and made you think a little or was it horrible because a similar event happened and a number of people bought into it��.Next you throw me into a category of crucifying Jews, Pharisees and Sadducees.
What Jesus are you worshiping!!!so I make sure to steer clear�..Once again all you can due is hurl insults rather than get to the real core of the legitimate questions I ask. Would it be fare when the Bible clearly states let him be accursed for preaching any other gospel that I have given you and by the way if you ad to my word I am going send the plagues of the bible to you for adding to my word���So tell me Dennis am I wrong for trying to tell others the real truth!!!! Am I wrong for trying to help my Mormon brothers from making a HUGE mistake��that could have eternal consequences!!! You continue to preach to me about your love for Christ I don�t see it brother there is another part of the gospel that is not being preached because everyone in America has this relaxed attitude DON�T Judge me man���.I have news brother Jesus mentions Hell a lot more than Heaven in the Bible and I certainly FEAR going there and will do my best to not only preach a gospel of love and forgiveness but one of judgment for those that do not know Christ����When Jesus comes again my friend it wont be to perform miracles he is Coming to JUGE the World and those in it who are not part of the body of Christ��.you say you know Jesus well the Devil himself knows Jesus who do you say that Jesus is do you believe in the fundamentals of the true doctrine on which the entire church of Christ is based on
A. The Deity of Christ ����.Jesus claim to be God
B. The Trinity��..Father, Son, Spirit��.All One
C. Saved by Grace not by Works
D. The Holy Bible is the Living Word of God.
E. Finally Jesus Christ your only access to the Father.

I like talking to you Dennis when your not attacking, all I am trying to do is get the brain cells working. This Joseph Smith guy might possibly be one of the biggest hoax�s of all time!!!!!!!!And maybe get our Mormon brothers to do some NONBIAS research on the guy��..Have a great day I will talk to ya later Eric.

P.S. Sorry I offended you on the Budda guy.

First, I thank God for every believer whom I come in contact with in person or via internet for their insight and fellowship on the Word. But, we can sit and use our brains to best describe the gospel till the cows come home. Let's look to the bondservant of Jesus Christ, Saul of Tarsus (better known as Paul) who wrote 1/2 the New Testament. How about we let him be the authority on the gospel?

...and he says

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

So if we're saved by the gospel Paul preached in the Bible, why would anyone need a Book of Mormon to know the True Living God? That�s what I want to know! (1 Cor. 5:1-4)

Please reply.

I will earnestly pray for blessings to you all. Amen.

Who is Christ to Me?
By Eric Farmer

He is my Savior, my Redeemer, my Lord of lords, and my King of kings. He is my Master, my father, and I cry out to Him Abba-daddy. He holds my hand, he guides my footsteps daily. He is my Rock, my Fortress; He holds my hopes and my dreams in the palm of His hands. He gives hope where I had only known disappointment and despair.
He rescued me from my bondage of sin. He delivered me out of the very hand of the evil one who had set His eyes on destroying me.
I am Eric Farmer, a child in Christ. No longer walking in the darkness, because Christ has chosen me long before I chose Him. I was on his mind before he laid the foundations of the world. His thoughts for me are more than the gains of sand surrounding the ocean shores.
I spent the most part of my life destroying myself and others threw my addiction to drugs and alcohol. Christ himself broke the bondage and loosened the chains that kept me there.
I am now a Bondservant, in Love, to the will of my Lord and seek only to serve Him daily.
I awake early in the mourning praising Him and studying His Living Word, The Holy Bible. (The instruction manual for human beings.)
I witness daily on the streets to non-Believers. The line of work I?m in allows me the extra time to do that. I help out on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays at Recovery Programs and Homeless Shelters. I hold Bible study at my home on Thursdays and yes, of course, I bring as many friends, family, and non-believers to church on Sunday?s. I tell you these things NOT to boast or to look for any pat on the back or nod of approval. God forbid lest he take my rewards that I am building up in heaven.
I tell you these things that you might see the WALK and not just the TALK.
As Franklin Graham once stated, ?There are a lot of people running around with Jesus in their head, but not in their heart.? Faith and works are one. You can?t have one without the other. ?Faith without works is dead!? (James 2:17)
Why am I always on this post? I don?t know. I do know this, I pray a lot for guidance and direction and yet I still end up here preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to our Mormon brother?s and sisters.
I am sorry if I offended anyone. I only say what is in my heart and I pray always that the Holy Spirit would always keep me humble and full of meekness. Christ is still working on me and I have a long way to go, but I certainly know the direction I am going without a doubt ?in the twinkling of an eye.? I hope and pray that you do too.

I am a practicing Christian and have a few questions. I have read the many comments posted on this site about Christianity and Mormonism. I found some of it interesting. I have a couple of questions if anyone can give me further insight I would be grateful. What is your view of the Trinity? History tells us that it is a Catholic doctrine by origin, voted on in the counsel of Nicea. As a non-Catholic should I accept their concept of the Trinity? I was wondering what your views are on Islam? I noticed many people making comments about Christianity and Mormonism but I honestly see Islam, especially the extremists as a larger concern for the Christian community than Mormonism. I have also noticed that many Christians seem to be afraid to comment on Islam, is this true? Mormonism seems to me as a small issue compared to Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Is Islam the giant elephant sitting in the room that no one wants to discuss? I have many Christian friends who are more than willing to discuss Mormonism, but not willing to really talk about Islam. I honestly see Islam as a much, much, larger issue and its hard to find people willing to discuss the religious aspect of it. What do you think?

I am a practicing Christian and have a few questions. I have read the many comments posted on this site about Christianity and Mormonism. I found some of it interesting. I have a couple of questions if anyone can give me further insight I would be grateful. What is your view of the Trinity? History tells us that it is a Catholic doctrine by origin, voted on in the counsel of Nicea. As a non-Catholic should I accept their concept of the Trinity? I was wondering what your views are on Islam? I noticed many people making comments about Christianity and Mormonism but I honestly see Islam, especially the extremists as a larger concern for the Christian community than Mormonism. I have also noticed that many Christians seem to be afraid to comment on Islam, is this true? Mormonism seems to me as a small issue compared to Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Is Islam the giant elephant sitting in the room that no one wants to discuss? I have many Christian friends who are more than willing to discuss Mormonism, but not willing to really talk about Islam. I honestly see Islam as a much, much, larger issue and its hard to find people willing to discuss the religious aspect of it. What do you think?

I am a practicing Christian and have a few questions. I have read the many comments posted on this site about Christianity and Mormonism. I found some of it interesting. I have a couple of questions if anyone can give me further insight I would be grateful. What is your view of the Trinity? History tells us that it is a Catholic doctrine by origin, voted on in the counsel of Nicea. As a non-Catholic should I accept their concept of the Trinity? I was wondering what your views are on Islam? I noticed many people making comments about Christianity and Mormonism but I honestly see Islam, especially the extremists as a larger concern for the Christian community than Mormonism. I have also noticed that many Christians seem to be afraid to comment on Islam, is this true? Mormonism seems to me as a small issue compared to Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Is Islam the giant elephant sitting in the room that no one wants to discuss? I have many Christian friends who are more than willing to discuss Mormonism, but not willing to really talk about Islam. I honestly see Islam as a much, much, larger issue and its hard to find people willing to discuss the religious aspect of it. What do you think?

sorry for posting 3 times, I am having mouse issues.

Hey Mike, good point. I think the reason most people don?t talk about Islam is because they don?t understand it. I have a basic knowledge of it but please double-check my facts. As far as I know, Muhammad himself had a vision from Gabriel the archangel in a cave in 610-630 A.D. During this time the updated version of the Koran was produced which is the foundation for the Muslim faith. Similar to Christianity, there are several different sects. The two most prevailing are the Sunni and the Shi?a. They do believe in the God of Abraham, which is comical because they hate the Jews. There is another group that ties themselves to the Muslim faith. They are the Islam fundamentalists. They are the ones strapping 20 sticks of dynamite blowing themselves up in the name of Allah. Regarding religions other than Judaism and Christianity, Islamic law states that unless there is a pact between members of these religions and Muslims, they are to be fought and compelled to accept Islam. The biggest bullet-hole in their faith is that they believe Jesus was just a good person. Jesus doesn?t allow us to label Him just a good teacher or prophet. He is either the Son of the Living God (which He is), or a liar and a lunatic. He doesn?t allow us to put him in the ?good teacher? category. It is apparent by their belief and their teachings that they?re not promised eternal life. I hope this answers a few of your questions

I don't know if it's my keyboard or the post a bunch of question marks kept popping up...on my last post..Sorry

Mike, as Ravi Zacharius said in a message entitled, -The Loss of Truth and a Proposal for it's Recovery-, 'don't let anyone tell you Islam is the fastest growing religion... It is the fastest growing [Enforced] religion'.

May our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ bless you and your family. Have a Great weekend everyone :)

Well - this is a pretty interesting blog! I'm LDS (mormon) and can see how people can think we're pretty ... weird. However, the thing that seems to freak people out the most is the thing that actually makes sense to me ... that we can become as God/Goddesses. So I just thought I share my reasoning...

I do remember learning about it as a teenager and thinking "WHAT?!?! We believe that?!?!" It sorta freaked me out too, but then I thought about it.

Puppies grow up to be dogs, kittens grow up to be cats... Why wouldn't children of God grow up to be Gods? Now, we certainly don't believe this happens overnight or right after we die. But right now people learn new things everyday, they create new things and new inventions, and research progresses. I think the longer we exist, the more we can learn, know, and understand. So after I die and live with God, it makes sense to me that I would continue to learn and grow... and maybe in billions and billions of years I would eventually know everything and be able to do the things God does (create worlds, have spirit children, teach them and help them to progress to have everything I have).

Even though we believe we can become Gods/Goddesses- we will always worship our Heavenly Father. It just means that eventually we will be able to do the things God does.

A man who ceases to believe in God does not believe in nothing; he believes in anything.
(G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy)

Hello, yep been a while, and will be before I am back. Shiftworker with no access on the job.

Every quote I could use from the Bible could be twisted into a different meaning. Rev 20:12 is no different. This is why every word of the Bible must be taken in context. Every word must fit with those within the phrase it is found. Every phrase must fit within the others it is found, every phrase with the statement/paragraph, then within the chapter, book, Bible. There are many statements in the Bible equal in meaning to Rev 20:12. There is no need to gather and dissect each. It is much like recognizing a counterfeit $20. Those trained to do so are not trained to identify every possible counterfeit. They are trained to recognize a $20. Everything is counterfeit. The Bible is the same. Every else is counterfeit.

No, I do not discount the numerous works expounding, exploring, translating, defining, etc. the Bible. But the moment an author alters by addition, omission, or error(purposeful or not) the work becomes at least fiction, at worst demonic.

God (author of the Bible) is clear. He meant what He said, said what He meant, and was complete. Are there mysteries still? Yes, but they will be answered by understanding, not altering.

Before any argument is made based on any other source you must first prove the Bible is false. This is an easy task, if the Bible is false in any way. The Bible can only stand if it is 100% correct.

Anne, the Bible clearly states there is one God and no others. Mormons claim to believe the Bible. Please explain how multiple God's can fit into the context of the Bible.

Food for thought: There was one angel who had decided that he wanted to be a GOD to!! I have no idea how old he was but we certainly know where he ended up!!! The Bible claims we are Sons of God Genesis 6:1. But there is only one beloved Son of God Luke: 3:21-22.

I just found this site, it is interesting to say the least. I am LDS and can only sympathize with a non Mormom on how to understand the concept of eternal progression. I want to be concise but explain a couple of things. We try not to put this principle in people's faces, it is not out of pride or that we think we are better than anyone else, not at all! The Bible mentions degrees of heaven, this only stands to reason even though we are all basically saved if you will. But we believe there has to be some reward for how we live our lives. We do firmly believe that all people will continue this progression after this life and if we are willing and above all obedient to his commmandments we will inherit all that God has as He says in the Bible. He truly wants us to become like him...but he is the only God we believe in and we will worship him forever and there are still so many things we do not understand that will happen in the eternities. This is deep doctrine not exlusive by any means to the LDS faith. Feel free to either blast me or continue a good discussion, haha. The comments here a pretty good however.

I am not LDS I?m sure you know by now but I will certainly agree on your belief with eternal progression in knowledge??..I think it would be foolish if I thought that all we will be doing in Heaven is hanging out playing the harp and banging drums all day long!!!! I believe that we will have duties and great rewards for our Works that were done on earth. Corinthians 3:13. Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 3:14 goes on to say. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. The Bible even talks about us judging Angels how insane is that, to think that in my short life span barley more than half of a century. With hardly any knowledge would be able to Judge a being that has possibly been around millions of years how incredible is that!!!!!!!! 1 Corinthians 6:3 illustrates this point perfectly. Paul says, 'Do you not know that we shall judge angels?

Have a Great Day Rod H.

Hello Eric, thanks for your response, I have read alot of this thread and you are to be commended for your knowledge and interest in the Bible. I love talking about things religious and am reading the Bible now, it is wonderful. I know that we as LDS members get bashed pretty good when it comes to other scripture but of course in my opinion it is seamless and non-contradictory from scripture to scripture and clears up so much misunderstanding but I know you would not agree. My hope would be that all this would be a very civil discussion because I want to understand some things you believe. With that said, trust me, I know that it is a jab to us when you talk about fallen angels and our concept of eternal progression, lol, but my question Eric is this, who was this angel and what was he doing in heaven? thanks, Rod

Good Morning Rod, I am trying to run out the door to church I will get back to ya later today. Eric

In response to Nathan Thompson who wanted a reply on why we need a Book of Mormon, let me answer that question with a question first, why then do we have four gospels instead of just one, why did Paul have to write after the death of Jesus. Can we seriously limit how much we possibly can learn of the Savior of the world. Archealogists still find dead sea scrolls that talk about early saints and other gospels that reference that time frame. There has been so much history written through the ages and men still had to make a decision of which of these books to include to make up the new testament. These searching questions and comments on this site arise because of multiple intreptrations of the Bible. The Book of Mormon was written by another people on another continent, we also anticipate in the future other records to come forth of Jesus' dealings and history with other races. The gospels of the New Testament all testify of Christ yet so many today in the Christian world still think He was a man or a great prophet or a brilliant teacher who just taught "good stuff", so to speak. So even with this magnificent Bible, which I surley love and believe, it still doesn't "convince" everyone in the world, because the spirit has to witness and testify in ours souls that Jesus is the divine Son of God. For all the bashing the Book of Mormon takes and will take, it is pure testimony that Jesus is the Son of God, was resurrected and visited another race and revealed himself to them and they wrote it. We don't expect the vast majority to believe it just like so many do not believe the Bible, but it is spiritual evidence and another testament of Jesus the Christ. Thanks for asking for a reply Nathan and I would welcome any further discussion. Rod

Hi Rod in reply to your question on who was the Angel that wanted to be a God? Isa. 14:12-14 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest side of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High." Did I answer your question or were you referring to something else I said earlier!!! I just wanted to say I don't study any anti Mormon books so the only things I know about your believes is from what I hear from one of my good friends who is LDS or what I see on the post. I also don't read any other books except the Bible, before everyone blasts me!!! I am a very busy person and don't have a lot of time and rather than read about someone else's opinion I would rather draw one for myself directly from Gods mouth himself the Holy Bible.

Hi Eric, who do you think Lucifer was before he was fallen and how could anyone fall from "heaven"? and in full disclosure I will share with you briefly what the LDS expanation is of this is in the future, you may be familiar with some of our doctrine concerning it, but I am interested of how you would explain this scripture in Isaiah. Also Eric, I would hopefully never blast anyone, I respect immensely anyone's belief and desire to learn about God. I pretty much know that I could never say anything to convince you to change your beliefs, nor could you change mine, however, I enjoy learning what others believe and have to say and maybe it brings more understanding on both side of the aisle as we all strive to be obedient and learn more of the God of us all, thanks again, Rod

Hi Rod I appreciate your politeness and love discussing our beliefs back and forth I know there is nothing that I can say or do that would move you to test your own doctrine that is up to God to put it in your heart. With that said I am sure you feel the same about me, it is no wonder with all the So-called Christians running around with so many different opinions. I don't want to Christian bash since I am one myself but it makes me sick to see this do as you want attitude and God will forgive me in the morning....what kind of teaching is that!! Christianity has become a check mark on the box when someone fills out an application to buy a car...(Not All Christians) you get my point. I do give the Mormons credit for showing strong family ties and a sincere belief and understanding of what they believe in, I wish more Christians showed the same enthusiasm than just coming to church once a week!!!! Or once a month for that matter!!!!
With that said I do find a huge problem with the book of Mormon I don't believe it's the word of God, I don't believe it's another Revelation from Christ and I believe it's the one thing that is holding Mormons back from true unity with ( Christ Like Followers ) There is nothing wrong with the Mormon label, it is my hope and prayer that perhaps some leaders in LDS will branch off and start a new LDS following based ONLY on the Holy Bible....and dismiss the teachings of Joseph Smith.

P.S. I will get back to the rest of your question tomorow....I need to spend sometime with the family..

Hey I found a good read take a look....I said I did not read other books but I do surf the web thank the Lord for cut and paste!!!The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:
"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?
The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."
Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").
The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.
So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."
Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,
"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...
How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.
How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."
Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".
So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.
The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.
So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon was written beginning in about 600 BC, and the author in 600 BC supposedly copied Isaiah in Isaiah's original words. When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah actually wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of LDS scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 76:26 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah.
A Mormon apologist responds.

The author of The Polytheism Of The Bible And The Mystery Of Lucifer, F.T. DeAngelis, comments on this page as follows
"It seems minor, but - the actual term used in the Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah 14:12 (given that there is no ONE way of accurately transliterating) is Eo(u)s phoros, morning star/DAWN god of light. Eos or Eous phoros [not Heos (as your website claims) or phos phorus (as a Christian website I visited shows)] - although there is a Greek term and English... phosphoro(u)s. Your [site] is pretty accurate.
The actual name, "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but -- as a morning star -- juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus(38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology."

On a lighter note, Arthur Clarke, in his fictional book 2061 correctly uses the word "Lucifer". He uses it as a name for a new sun in the solar system which is correct since the new sun is a second 'morning star' of 'original' 'light-bearing' substance--not some evil being of religious mythology.
David Grinspoon comments on the historical aspects of the word as follows: "The origin of the Judeo-Christian Devil as an angel fallen from heaven into the depths of hell is mirrored in the descent of Venus from shining morning star to the darkness below. This underworld demon, still feared today by people in many parts of the world, is also called Lucifer, which was originally a Latin name for Venus as a morning star." (Venus Revealed p. 17) Actually, Grinspoon should just refer to the "Christian Devil" since the Jews never believed in such a creature and still don't to this day.

That was well presented Eric.

Personally, I think there is a larger theme missed with the Biblical elusions to Lucifer and Satan. Man is very tied up in this picture.

For instance, what do we do with '2 Corinthians 11'?

'12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.

I think the greater theme is that evil is rarely 'sold' as what it is. It is peddled as 'good and right'.

Mankind is fallen...

Is Lucifer (the Babylonian King) the same as Satan?

Yes, very much so... in the sense that Satan is man's seducing Spirit apart from the Holy Spirit.

Satan cannot affect this physical world apart from embodying you and me.

That is why when Jesus rebuked Peter in Matthew chapter 16 He said, "Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Notice Jesus was talking to the root of the idea that Peter wrongly clinged to, rather than only Peter.

Also, if you look at the book of Job, in chapter 40 and 41, we see an increasingly descriptive overlaying, of characteristics of an astonishing beast (or beasts).

I think the Leviathan and Behemoth of Job nicely show us the physical reality of pride and evil in the world, and the fact that only God can subdue it.

My apologies for the length, but here are some things I have tied together:

The serpent of Genesis is the Serpent of Revelation. John makes that clear... So let's look at what this serpent (Satan) has turned men into:

Job 40:15-24
15 "Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. 16 What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! 17 His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. 18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. 19 He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword. 20 The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby. 21 Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh. 22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him. 23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth. 24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose?

41:1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? 2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? 3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words? 4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life? 5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? 6 Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants? 7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? 8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! 9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering. 10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me?

11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. 12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form. 13 Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle? 14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth? 15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together; 16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. 17 They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. 18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. 19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. 20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. 21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth. 22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him. 23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable. 24 His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone. 25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing. 26 The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin. 27 Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. 28 Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him. 29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance. 30 His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. 31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair. 33 Nothing on earth is his equal-- a creature without fear. 34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."

There are many scriptures to validate this translation of these beasts. Here is just a small sample of the clearest ones and their corresponding scriptures.

(Job 41:1)
Rev 20; 1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, Having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He layed hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the devil and satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the botttomless pit, and shut him up..."
(Job 41:2)
Ezekiel 38 3; 4 'and say, Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am against you. O Gog, prince of Rosh, meshech, and Tubal. I will turn you around and put hooks in your Jaw...'

(multiple references)
Ezekiel 29:1-7
2 "Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt and prophesy against him and against all Egypt. 3 Speak to him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: "'I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt, you great monster lying among your streams. You say, "The Nile is mine; I made it for myself." 4 But I will put hooks in your jaws and make the fish of your streams stick to your scales. I will pull you out from among your streams, with all the fish sticking to your scales. 5 I will leave you in the desert, you and all the fish of your streams. You will fall on the open field and not be gathered or picked up. I will give you as food to the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air.

(Daniel 7:3)
Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong, Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

-----------------------
And if I might extend some speculations on this sea�

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

Daniel 7: 3
Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

I just wanted to say Rob I applaud your knowledge of the word of God it far surpasses mine. I have been a Christian for many years but never a true follower up until a year ago when I decided to actually take up Christ Cross Daily. I am on my third time threw the Bible and still feel like I hardly know anything. I am diligently studying the scriptures daily using a parallel study Bible that uses four translations so that I can cross-reference if I have problem with interpretation. The more I read the more it makes me want to shut my mouth!!!!! Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding;
God Bless you Rob may God continue give you great wisdom and great understanding.

Thanks for your kind words Eric, but I assure you that I have my own struggles.

I seem to be able to understand the Word to a great degree in a relatively short amount of time as a Christian, but applying that understanding is another matter.

The fact of the matter is that God's Word holds true, and with more depth than we can fathom. We just keep plumbing the depths, and it is never exhausted.

I just wanted to point out that the references to Lucifer were more applicable than you might have seen at first.

There are dimensions to the scriptures that if criticized as only one angle, leave out the 'whole' picture.

When the proper context is given, scripture that first appeared errant or somehow deficient, suddenly comes to glorious and Holy life.

Hello Eric, not sure how to respond to that cut and paste, I guess all is fair game, so if I decided to cut and paste other testimony and evidence of the Book of Mormon it would take up a tremendous amount of space and reading time. Who knows how accurate this information is and I have to admit I am not that smart, but I know what I know just as you feel you know. Like you said before, neither of our faiths are going to be shaken over claims and opinions on the internet. To address another one of your points about breaking from the Mormon church because of the Book of Mormom. Eric, I think you know the answer to that, it IS the fundamental foundation of what Joseph restored. If it is false then we are false, if it is true then it will be embraced like it has been by thousands upon thousands just like the Bible has been embraced, you are bold with your beliefs, and I admire that, let me be bold also. We will never apologize or walk away from the Book or Mormon. Of course you will never believe it without ever reading it sincerely and I don't fault anyone for that, there must be a reason for someone to search and be willing to look for something different in their life. You are a Chrisian and grounded in your faith and I will always respect that. For us to walk away from the B of M is like the Protestants walking away from the Catholic church, there becomes a big issue of authority and it is like a Catholic priest remarked many years ago who did research on basic beliefs of the Mormons. "Either the Mormons or Catholics are right, because the Catholic church has either retained the priesthood authority through the centuries and Protestant breakoffs left without any authority or Joseph Smith through God restored the original church that Christ set up with apostles and prophets and complete restoration of all authority which we believe he did. Wow it is interesting how and where these discussions go, thanks for reading, Rod

Well, after 4 years there doesn't seem to be a concensus emerging. Surprising considering that peoples eternal souls are at stake here. You would think that God would intervene and set the record straight. Alas, no - just conflict among the "faithful".

Still, a great advertisement for athiesm, and for that I salute you.

Good morning Clarky, you’re right about the God intervening part but least when we expect it !!! When Christ comes it won’t be to perform miracles he comes to judge However now is the time of salvation. In His Second Coming, Jesus will not come to save anyone, but to Judge both, the living and the death....I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. (2Corinthians 6:2, Is.49:8... Ps.91:16, 96:2, 98:2,3, 116:13, 118:14, 149:4). I know your referring to the getting along part of the problem, the problem is the SIN factor and until Christ comes again you will not see a world unity. When you see a world unity and everything is totally perfect…..congratulations you are most likely in Heaven or on the new earth!!! How ever with that said we are commanded to live in piece with one another. You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Matt. 22:37-39)

Eric,

Given that you are commanded to live in peace with other citizens of this planet, why do so many christians (including Glenn Beck) support the war in Iraq? Are you in support of the war?

Hi Clarky, Wow is that a loaded question or what, in fact I think this is a similar but good a question that started this whole post!!! You said Christians and I are commanded to live in peace, that was a command to Jew and Gentile alike I am assuming you to be a Gentile! I wanted to say also that Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Now with that said I being a child of Christ will do my best to live in peace with all man kind...I want to tell you I am a Veteran and thank the Good Lord I never had to take someone's life directly or indirectly. I also want to be honest with you after 9/11 in my heart I wanted to nuke any and everyone that had anything to do with it!!! It's a good thing I am not President and haft to make those decisions. I have changed my opinion a few times on this war issue, at first it seemed like a good idea and I went along with it. When it started to drag on and the death toll started to rise and every time I turned the news on they were burning our flag in the streets and shouting death to America my opinion changed!!! The problem now it's like we kicked a hornets nest and they wont stop stinging do I hope I can out run them by going home or do I make my stand thinking I can kill them all one at a time!!! If we cut and run now are these guys going to follow us home? I want to say also I was very disappointed with the way our President was handling things especially since I voted for him. I have to tell ya when I found out how much he prays and truly ask for Gods direction in his life I would much rather have a God fearing man in charge of the Country than and atheist. At least I know even though he may not make the right decisions all the time I know God is with him and with our Country....Take God out of our Country and I will show you Sodom and Gomorra!!!!!! With all that said I am open to your opinion on the war and any one else that would like to comment.

Eric,

Some good points but ultimately you avoided answering the question.

Although I am an athiest, I am not one to take a negative view of people who hold faith. Therefore I have no problem with a president who has faith in some God. However, the current president has demonstrated on many occasions that he lacks the ethical standards that I normally associate with people who live by the book. Anyway, that is just my personal opinion.

Anyway, this raises another question and brings us back to the subject of the blog:

How do you feel about having a Mormon president? You have stated that you believe it is essential that we have a president who prays and asks for God's direction, lest the USA become Sodom and Gomorra. But if you dont believe that Mormons are worshipping the true god, then isn't it just as likely that our country will become Sodom and Gomorra under Mitt Romney?

Eric:

PS: In response to your earlier comment, IMHO, I think you have taken many lives indirectly by voting for George Bush. Including those of many God-fearing fellow Americans. However, I suppose you can atone for this sin in the next election.

Good morning Clarky, Your first point on the question of war is a tuff one for me because I think war should be the very last resort (An Action of Defense Not Offense) !!! Your next point on being an atheist raises a much bigger concern and begs the question where do you plan on spending eternity? To be an atheist you have greater faith than me to believe in nothing, especially when most scientist now are starting to believe themselves in some type of creation. They are finding out that there just was not enough time in the universe for the evolution of cell changes to take place; the earth is not old enough. The theory behind evolution creating order out of chaos has way to many holes for me when are very own DNA point to a creator....Any how this a whole different discussion, I would love to send you stuff on Creation Vs Evolution!
On your point about a Mormon for President I would much rather have a Christian President but at the same time I would take a Mormon President over any non-believer any day of the week because of the strong moral character most Mormons portray....Having a God fearing President can only make for a better Country it certainly won't effect Gods decision to let it go to waste or destroy it, the lack of God or no God will decide that. We have many examples threw out history of what happens to a People or Nation that does not put God at the forefront of it's decision making.
Your last point about my voting for Bush!! Do I kill people every day indirectly and inadvertently when I drive my car or do something that causes a chain reaction to slow, speed up or alter someone's direction in life that leads to a catastrophic collision!!! Am I at fault for that to? If I work at a knife factory am I responsible for anyone that dies from the knives I make?
As for the atone part when Jesus Christ died on the Cross he atoned for ALL OF OUR SINS all you have to do is believe in him it's that simple. Clarkly I stand at the door and knock if you will answer I will come in our Lord is standing there right now with his arms opened wide waiting to receive you into his kingdom Clarky he knows you by name and is waiting....

Eric, here are my responses:

First, there is no way that our recent activity in the Middle East can be interpreted as an action of defence. The vast majority of the rational world interpreted it as an unjustified act of aggression - this is the reason that America is currently the pariah of the Western world. What happened to turning the other cheek?

Second, as an athiest, I am obviously not the least bit concerned about eternity. This doesn't require any faith on my part, just a lack of irrational fear.

I have no desire to discuss evolution and science with you because your outlook is based on faith and (at best) subjective truth.

Regarding the presidential issue, how would you feel about an Islamic president, would this be preferable to a non-believer?

Regarding your decision to support Bush: No, this isn't about innocently initiating catastrophic events. The fact of the matter is that you continue to support a man who cannot abide by the commandments set out in your bible. How can you expect to stake a place in the kingdom of heaven given these circumstances. After all, you make a conscious choice to follow this charlatan in spite of the mass murder and destruction.

Anyway, keep in mind that your God speaks to you in mysterious ways and (like me) he is also an athiest.

You know Eric it never sits very well when there are these seemingly endless comments about Mormons not being Christian, frankly it gets old as you love to throw it out. Last time I checked there was one Bible which we both believe, and if I am not mistaken there is only one Jesus Christ in whom we as LDS believe adamantly. We do have more scripture that testifies on an even deeper level that Jesus is the literal and only son of God. As followers we strive to obey his commandments and strive to love our neighbors and try to live Christian lives. Please tell me where "your" authority comes from for you to label who is Christian and who is not. I judge you as Christian, just as I do Catholics, Protestants or whoever believes in Jesus. It is in our church name and we try to live our lives as He would have us. In the bigger picture it doesn't matter what you want to call us because we are who were are and nothing will change that, just as early Jews tried to label Christ as an imposter. I would never bash you or label you because of your sincere beliefs, however somehow you all feel free to rail against us becuase of a particular doctrine of eternal progression. But hey, if we are wrong then so be it, because in the end I will always look to him as my Savior and Redeemer, without him I am nothing, and would doomed to hell without his supreme sacrifice and death for me personally. I am so imperfect, but if there is anything non Christian about that then I am not a Christian.

Proverbs 8
Wisdom's Call
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:

4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.

5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.

6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.

7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.

8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.

9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.

10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,

11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.

13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.

14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.

15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;

16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth. [a]

17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.

18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.

19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.

20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,

21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old;

23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.

33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.

34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

Hi Eric, that proverb reminds me of the thought process I went through in trying to comprehend the concept of the Trinity. It is an excerpt from a paper of mine. I just wanted to share it for what it is worth.

It may be dry and intellectual for some, but personally, I am astounded by the simple clarity and wisdom of God's exquisite and reasonable nature.

-God is the truth. Or, the truth would be 'of God'; that is, 'begotten' by God; part of God; a dimension of God. The truth would 'be God'. It is very much just the way addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are a dimension of mathematics; and in fact they are math. Individually, they are not the totality of math, but they will lead us to the higher mathematics faithfully.

Continuing along this line, the truth in math (the logic and �wisdom� of it) is the same in the lower mathematics, as it is in the higher. There is simply more or less complexity when comparing the two. They have a different function. Trying to put a value on either (over and above the other) is a rather subjective project that requires a lack of the very essence of logic that opens into objectivity. For objectivity is itself the nature of logic. Logic has an objective. In that sense the lower math is just as pure and wonderful as the higher. I make note of this for obvious reasons; the Son is just as beautiful as the Father.

Together they are God, and as individuals they are God. There is no better than, but only love for each other and their mutual function and purpose. In this way, their Spirit is the very essence of logic and is also God. Jesus spoke of the abundant life; it is eternal and is therefore absolute. It is unlike our life that is a bound and limited life; limited by food, water, air, and death (entropy). Jesus spoke about having food that we new nothing about, living water, the clouds of heaven, and eternal life (the absence of death).

This whole manner of illustrating God by use of mathematic symbolism may provide a look into another mystery. In Mathew, chapter 12; 31, Jesus says that all blasphemy and sin will be forgiven except blasphemy of the spirit. I can�t help but think of the Spirit in the confines of our mathematical example as the essence of God. In our mathematics, the logic (wisdom) itself is to be revered and embraced.-

Reject that wisdom, and we have no place left to turn. He is our only salvation.-

This was written about 560 BC:
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

And this at about 33 A.D: 6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:
7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name�hear ye him.
8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.
9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:
10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.

All this "written or made up" by a liar, deceiver, and a power hungry 24 year old, non educated, non "Christian" farm boy. 531 pages of all this Book of Mormon nonsense "written" in the equivalent 60 days". This is just a tiny portion of why we love and believe this book, it testifies of Jesus Christ and goes hand in hand with the Bible in testifying to the world that He is the Savior of the world. Rod H.

Rod: The Bible mentions different Heavens, not degrees. All descriptions taken in context give us 3; 1. God's. 2. Buffer (best I can do) = angels both God's and Satan's. 3. Ours = any from 1 or 2 may enter and depart 3, we are restricted to 3 until death. There are rewards for "how we live". They are named treasures but not defined. Could be as simple as your personal, physical address in relation to God's throne. The only guarantee of compensation for our actions is residence in God's Heaven. Even eternal life is already possessed by all mankind. The question is where. We are not "all basically saved" only those who believe on Christ's sacrifice for our sin will enter Heaven. Will there be more to learn, do, etc? I believe so but have no biblical base to describe the possibilities, so will not.

Mormons claim to be Christian, but have not read, like you, read the Bible (May 20, 1047). Not having read or in some manner gained an understanding of the Bible excludes, by definition anybody from being a Christian. The term originated as a label for those following the teachings of Jesus and the disciples. This cannot be a label for those who do not know and believe exclusively the Bible.

Rod it does not appear Nathan answered you counter-query of the need of Book of Mormon. You might read my post from May 19 0808. I will also add that no document contradicting the Bible has been proved accurate while the Bible has never been proved in-accurate either historically, scientifically, or prophetically.

The Book of Mormon cannot be a "restoration" from God because it disagrees with the Bible. Disregarding the Bible because of the failings of Christians is equal to disregarding math because students get the wrong answer.

I am confused by your May 24, 802pm. It appears to claim that Joseph Smith wrote things in the past.

Clarky. God set the record straight, the Bible.

To "live in peace" is an ultimate goal, but one we cannot achieve. It is impossible in a world of sin. It is also incorrect to believe Christians may not take life. God has ordered such in the past. And before you misquote me a Commandment; we are commanded not "murder", killing is sometimes necessary.

The war in Iraq meets with standards set by God (Old Testament), preemptive attacks were often ordered as an offensive defense of Israel. It is still a good policy. The war has not been conducted perfectly, no war can be. I voted for Bush on the only base I have ever been able to vote, lesser evil of available.

Are all atheists afraid of the scientific debate? No scientific claim of the Bible has ever been proved false. My faith is scientifically sound. Atheism is not, it relies on accidental evolution, which is less viable (scientifically) every day, has never withstood any test of science, and is by the definitions of science (theory, fact, hypothesis, falsifiable etc.) not currently provable.

Claiming God is an atheist? Please explain? God certainly believes in His own existence.

Larry, as a point of fact, I have read the New Testament several times and am reading it now. I don't know how you can say that Mormons do not read the Bible. Every four years in our church study we study and read the Bible. If reading the Bible from cover to cover is requisite to someone being Christian, you have eliminated alot of people, but then there is that inuendo that the "evangelicals" are judges so to speak, of who is Christian and who isn't.

We as Mormons believe that all men are saved from the fall of Adam through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each person will inherit a form of glory in Heaven after this life according to his or her works. I am also very curious as to how Catholics fit into your vision of who is Christian, they have saints and Mary is prayed to, and I would be willing to say that alot of Catholics have not read the Bible. Are they Christian? and if so, where did they go wrong? You claim to have a truth that is different from them because certainly many religions were spawned because of a belief that "they" went wrong somewhere. Also of course we do not believe that Joseph Smith "wrote" the Book of Mormon. We would not exist as a religion if we thought that. Since the beginning of time there have been many races and people who may have had dealings with the Lord and he may have had them record their histories and spiritual beliefs along the way. I have no idea why that possiblility is such a threat to Christianity, it would fortify the reality that Jesus is God.

My last point would be this, please do not take my questions or disagreements for anything except just that, I do not know you or Eric or anyone else here as a person, but would compliment you as I have others for your belief in the Savior and your willingness to pursue His written word through the Bible. The entire world would be a much better place if the love your neighbor commandment were just followed in all of our doings. We will always, I'm sure need to agree to disagree, but I enjoy learning others' beliefs and of course defending my own! Rod

Hi Everyone, I am back form the Holiday I hope everyone had a safe and great time.
I have to say I am a little blown away how any Mormons or Jehovah Whiteness could possibly even for a second think that they were Christians���Serious Rod what are you thinking unless you believe in the fundamentals of Christianity you can not and should not call yourself a Christian I am a Mormon as much as you are a Christian!!!! First off the Catholics, Protestants, Baptist and other Christian based churches all believe in the very same fundamentals���Now I am not saying they agree on everything, there are small issues that each church has there own interpretation of but they can all say with out a doubt they believe in the Essentials of the Doctrine and I will give that to you in a second. It is not by my authority that decides but by the doctrine itself if any church deviates from these Essentials then they are not of the Christian denomination and cannot and should not be called Christians�

Saved by Faith, not Works
We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ. Not by any works we may do. No man can earn his way into heaven. We are not saved by keeping the 10 Commandments, we are not saved by being members of a church. We are not saved by being baptized. We are not saved by being charitable. We are not saved by giving to the poor, helping the sick, etc. All of those things are good, and commendable, but they will not save you. You are saved only by believing the Gospel, in what Jesus Christ did on that Cross, dying for all of our sins and accepting him as your Lord and Savior.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1st Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Believing the Gospel is salvation, works are not part of salvation (but a saved person should certainly do good works):
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Am I saying that works aren't important No, works are important. Every believer should do all he is able or willing to do to help others. Salvation, however is not dependent on works.

The Bible is the Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth
The Bible is the Inspired (and complete) Word of God. We can believe that every word in the scripture is there because God wanted it there (in the original Hebrew and Greek). Our modern translations may have minor translation problems, but nothing serious (though some modern translations are nothing short of blasphemous). I use the New King James Version mainly, but also more modern translations as well.
We have a complete revelation. We need no "new revelations". When I first became a believer, I made the mistake of attending a United Pentecostal Church, where every single service, the preacher told how God "spoke to him last night" and gave him some new revelation or prophecy. Well, it wasn't God speaking to him, as none of the prophecies came to pass. We have the scriptures, and we need no new revelation. I believe that we can (and do) receive (via the Holy Spirit) personal revelations, of importance only to families and ourselves. However, many of these Evangelical preachers receiving new revelations from "God" every day are following another spirit, another Christ, and another Gospel, for they almost always contradict the scripture we were given. Verify every thing with the Scripture. If it contradicts the scripture, then it isn't of God.
If you don't believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, then you might as well throw your copy away, and live anyway you please, for if it isn't the truth, then there is no truth. You either believe it or you don't.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, the Doctrine of the "Trinity"
The Trinity, or Triune nature of God. Simply put, God is one "what" and three "who�s". God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost). The Bible provides ample evidence that the Son and the Holy Spirit are also God, just like the Father. Does this mean that the one God appears to us in different forms, as it suits his purpose' One day he is the father, one day the son No, that is not correct. God is ALWAYS the Father, always the Son and always the Holy Spirit. He is eternally present in all three persons. Does this mean there are three gods! No, just one. Does this mean he is one God, but has three "offices", such as a woman who is (at the same time), a Mother, a Wife, a School Teacher, a sister, an Aunt, etc. No, that is not correct either. The three persons of the godhead are all equal and all coexist. The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible, but then again, neither does the word "Bible", so don't let that throw you for a loop. It is a complex concept, and quite difficult to grasp at first, but the scriptures do show it to be true.

Jesus was both fully God and fully man
Jesus (Yeshua) is fully God and fully man. Jesus was referred as both the "Son of God" and the "Son of Man". Jesus (the man) was born of a woman (Mary) as flesh and blood. In this way he was fully a man. Yet he was and is the Son of God from eternity past. He became man also when he was born to Mary, and as a man he lived and walked the earth, and died, yet all the while he was also God.

Literal return of Christ
Jesus is returning to earth to rule as Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He will physically come back to earth, just as he promised. He told us to watch for him, unless he comes as a thief in the night. The time is growing closer every day.

I leave you with this Rod reading the Bible and doing great things will not get you one step closer into Heaven it is by our belief in Jesus Christ and what he did on the Cross that�s what will get us into Heaven. Our works should be the evidence that Christ lives within us if there is no works how can we boast that Christ is in us���We can all agree to disagree on a lot of things but the one thing is certain unless you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior there is no hope��

Wow, Eric do you ever reinforce the need for constant revelation and clarification of all the misunderstandings of the Bibe. There was one Lord, one faith and one baptism, all must be baptized with the correct authority in order to enter the kingdom of God(and actually baptism for the dead, which you don't know what to do with) and now we have the so-called Christians who are all right and good. The Bible also says that all those who say to me Lord Lord will not enter the kingdom of God. There is a little more to it than just saying I am saved.

With your latest response I would think you would join the Catholic church, because they claim to be the original church from the time of Christ, with the authority that came down from Peter, you have stepped away from them and so the huge problem of being baptized by one with authority will need to be addressed. However, we have an explanation for that.

The Godhead is comprised of 3 distint individuals, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, one in purpose, three individuals. The Bible states this very clearly but my goodness there are alot of expanations for this by so many religions, the Book of Mormon clears this up perfectly. Hope you had a great vacation Eric. Rod

I hope that people here can help me out. I have realized that I can only be sure of salvation by making an oath with Jesus, our Lord and savior. My friends and family are LDS and they really want me to join the LDS church. Obviously, I love my family and would like to make them happy. However, some friends have told me that i will not be truly saved in the Mormon faith because the Prophet Joseph Smith was a fraud.

I have read through this blog and many similar discussions and I get the impression that most Christians believe that Mormons will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Is this correct?

Thanks and God bless,

Percy

Hi Percy, I want to say I do not bring judgment against my Mormon Brothers or Sisters it is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that will do that��.I do find their doctrine full of bullet holes and the founder Joseph Smith to be a fraud. Why go with something that could possibly cost you your salvation or even worse cause others to follow in your path of destruction. I certainly would not want to gamble with eternity or even becoming a False Profit that would lead others to destruction!!!!! Once again I am still waiting for a reply on how the Mormons defend.

(Galations 1:6-12)
"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the Grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ. But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither revieved it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Percy pray for guidance��..say Lord Jesus I am unsure of the direction I should take please speak to me threw your Holy Spirit and direct my path, I am truly seeking after you with all my heart, please guide me in the direction you would have me go.

P.S. Sorry Rod for the harshness I needed to cut to the chase for someone sitting on the fence....I hope you had a great weekend too

Percy, I cannot think of any better advice than what Eric just gave you. Sincerely pray to find the truth! We offer to add to what you already know and believe about Jesus Christ. We love him and our church (and the only church as I am aware) bears His name. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We wholeheartedly believe the Bible to be the word of God. Nothing in Mormonism or the Book of Mormon disagrees with the Bible, alot is subject to interpretation as you see from these discussions. That is why so many religions exist is because they all interpret it a little differently.

Josehp Smith is either a fraud as Eric and others believe or he was a latter day prophet. You probably already know his story which I won't repeat, but he left hard evidence that can be put to the test. The Book of Mormon has a promise at the end or it, that anyone who sincerely reads with an open mind and heart, and if you pray to know, will know with an assurety through the Holy Spirit that it is true.

It is in black and white and is very clear. Everytime I read it I ask myself..is there anyway a man let alone a 22 year old farm boy could have made this up? Of course the answer to us is no and I also without any doubt know that it is true. The Holy Spirit has testified to my soul that it is true.

Do not join any church for family happiness or to please friends, do it for yourself and find the truth for yourself. If what we claim to be is correct, then it is the second greatest story ever told next to the birth and death of the Savior of the world and will change your life forever. Rod

Eric, I have a question for you. What happens to a man who was born in Russia or Africa or some place like that, back in the dark ages without any chance during his lifetime of ever hearing about Jesus or the bible, what happens to him after his death? thanks, Rod

Good Morning Rod I get that question a lot!!! I have and answer for you but I would like to get an answer on how Mormons treat (Galations 1:6-12) ??? Since the Book of Mormon was a new Revelation given from an Angel almost 1800 years after the last Gospel was written!!!

Eric, you have to love all this..I have no idea who the angel is that is described in those verses. God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, thereafter the angel Moroni, a resurrected being who was the last writer of the Book of Mormon showed Joseph where to find the buried plates. Moroni is referred to in the book of Revelations as the angel flying through the midst of heaven with the everlasting gospel. Test it Eric, and read some of the Book of Mormon for yourself to find out whether it is from God or another source.

Your intrepretation of that scripture in Galatians would be an angel from Satan possibly. Somehow I don't think an angel of the devil would preach goodness, obedience, love thy neighbor, morality, no drinking, no smoking or drugs, family unity, go to church each week, tithing, fast offerings, and a welfare system second to none to help, and encouraged to read the Bible and to become Christlike. We are not perfect in any sense of the word but most of try as hard as we can to be Christlike people. Wicked angels do not present that.

You mentioned previously that commandments, baptism and other things were not that necessary for salvation. What of the story in Luke where a rich man asks the Savior what else can he DO after obeying the commandments to gain eternal life. This is quite clearly an obedience question and thereafter Jesus tells him to also sell everything, which he cannot do and therefore will possibly not gain eternal life. We have a huge difference in the intrepretation of eternal life, it is God's life and is not inherited, what is automatic with the death of Jesus Christ is resurrection of our physical bodies, never to die again and the ability to gain an eternal reward according to our obedience. This man in Luke had already acknowledged that he believed in Christ as he was talking to him, but he had to do more,there is more to it than just believing.

And after all this I still look forward to your response to my previous question. Thanks

Dear Eric and Rod,

Thank you very much for your responses. However, I am still so confused.

Eric, you seem to think that I will not reach Gods eternal kingdom if I choose to follow the Book of Mormon.

Rod: If I choose to become a Christian but not LDS, what is my ultimate fate in your view?

I am leaning towards Mormonism for family reasons. For example, I would really like to attend my sister's wedding, which will take place in the temple.

Please, what do other Mormons and Christians think about my dilemma?

Love, Percy.

Also, Rod, about your comments on false prophets... Something that worries me intensely.... I dont know if you have thought about your argument in reverse

If I were an agent of Satan who wanted to capture the hearts of good people, I would want to appear on the surface to be good. How else would I lure them away from their true god into despair.

This is my biggest concern. Your comments about the promise in the book of Mormon also concern me. Perhaps this is a form of demonic spell intended to bring good people under the power of a false god.

Percy, thanks for your comments, I would like to address one of your questions later because it would take some time, that is the question of where a non mormon might end up so to speak.

The promise of the Book of Mormon is this, that you read it and then ask God the Eternal Father if it is true or not, if it is not true there will be no answer, if it is true then His Holy Spirit will testify to you that it is and you will have no doubt. The Lord is not going to let an evil spirit intervene when He, God, is giving you an answer to a prayer. If that were to happen we could never trust what answer we would get. With any question we ask in prayer to God, we have to have the faith that it will be answered, and in the Bible it states so many times that whatever we ask will be given to us when we ask sincerely seeking truth. That is exactly what he wants us to do because myself, nor Eric or anybody can "convert" you by our words, it must come from Heavenly Father himself through His Spirit.

One other thing, do not just join the Mormon church to go a wedding, yes that would be nice, but you need a witness that it is true, otherwise it would be meaningless in your life and you would be right back to square one.

Hi Percy, I wanted to tell you the same questions you raised to Rod are the exact same ones that popped up in my head. The devil and his team have been around for Millions of years and they have had thousands of years to come up with good strategies to pollute Christian Doctrine and It's Churches.

Mark 13:5-6 "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

Mark 13-22 "For false Christ's and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

Percy if your truly seeking God, Behold this verse;

Luke 11:9-10 "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asked received; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Percy there is a battle at this very moment being waged for your soul.

Ephesians 6-12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

I'm sorry to say, Rod has been misled and blinded by the ruler of this world.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

Romans 16:17-20 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; AND AVOID THEM. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

Percy, don't let anyone tell you that you must join a specific church or you're not saved. Don't let anyone tell you that you must perform works to be saved. The only works that can save you is Jesus going to the cross. There are plenty of Mormon or so-called Christian churches loaded with legalism.

Forget about the religion part, it's a relationship our Almighty God, who seeks to have you through His son who died on the Cross for all the sins you?ve committed and all the sins you're going to commit. I am talking about a relationship with a God that cares for you more than you could ever imagine.

Romans 10:12-13 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

And finally the most famous verse of them all

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

If you pray this prayer, and mean it, I guarantee you will be saved. Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner. Please forgive me of my sins. Please come into my heart. I accept you as my personal Lord and Savior. I give my life to you, lead me and guide me the rest of my life. Amen.

God bless you and have a great day.

I can help point you in the right direction for good and sound teachings to further your walk with Christ.

Eric,

I agree totally.

Rod,

Why must a good person be excluded from attending a family wedding in the temple anyway? Thi is truly what one would expect of a cult.

I know mormons and they are great people who are more christian and followers of the way christ exemplified his life than any other people i have known. I am disappointed by the so called "Christains" that have bashed the Mormons and are filled with so much hate. I think they should not be called "Christains" because they are the one's that are not acting Christ-like. Christ's message was one of love, which is more in line with Mormon doctrine. Christian churches that actually bash other religions feel threatened and are filled with hate and do not deserve to be called Christians because they do not follow Christ's message of love.

All the true prophets of the Bible were clearly called by God in the Scripture. Nowhere is the author and finisher of the Mormon faith (Joseph Smith) mentioned in the Bible. In fact, nowhere is the word "Mormon" mentioned in the Bible. What is mentioned is that God's Word is sufficient, His Children shall hear the Word with "readiness of mind, and search the scriptures daily, to see if these things were so." (Acts 17:11)

That's what we if Christians are 'called' to do. So this leads me to suggest we turn off the television, turn off the teachers, turn away the world and all its documentation, and search the Holy Scriptures daily for the final authority on faith and practice. If you claim to be a Mormon, you claim to believe in the Bible. Well if you believe in the Bible, you would know the book of Revelation finished everything that was started in Genesis and whoever adds to that truth, God will adds the plagues that are written in His book to them. Let?s not put God in a box, I think He Himself would know that Revelation is the last book of the bible FOR A REASON. Let Joseph Smith take the heat for adding to His book, turn from deceit, and follow Christ. Amen.

p.s. Rod, please take note to my response in place of Eric regaurding your last question. He seems truely concerned for someones salvation than debateing Christianity Vs. Mormonism.

In your last response you asked, "What happens to a man who was born in Russia or Africa or some place like that, back in the dark ages without any chance during his lifetime of ever hearing about Jesus or the bible, what happens to him after his death?"

Well the Bible teaches that the heart of man is deceitfully wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9-10 ) God is just and He is holy (free from sin), He can not spend eternity with unjust, unholy, sinners.

Romans 2:12 (NLT) claims, "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."

But God says "The just shall walk by faith.? Not by faith in a religion, But that Christ died for our sins.

Romans 2:14 (NLT) states, "Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong."

The scriptures are an infinite God, expressing Himself, in a finite book. Our brains are small and his brain is far larger than ours. Who are we to take the place of God and decide who is saved? Shame on you for asking that question, you?re outright attacking God. Who is to say that those Russians or Africans who sit in hell to this day weren't idol worshiping and sexually perverse people? I don?t think Eric knew them, did you know them, Rod? Did you know their actions? Did you know their hearts?

Luke 12:47-49 "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. BUT he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Rod if you understand this parable you will understand a snapshot of God's heart.

Rod be not afraid to question what you hear and believe, I myself have seen false doctrine pollute different Christian Churches. Test what you hear always with the Bible we know it to be the absolute inspired word of God, if it does not line up with the Bible red sirens should be going off in your head!!!!!!!!
If your Mormon church is preaching a works for salvation doctrine they are terribly wrong Dead Wrong��Salvation is a gift from God freely given. No one church can claim exclusive to it, Man has always tried to complicate it by thinking he has to do all these things to receive salvation. Christ said:

Matthew 11:28-30 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.�

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rod I pray that the Holy Spirit would speak to you today and reveal a true Revelation of his love for you by what he did on the Cross and not by your works. The salvation he gives to you is gift not earned but given freely because of your belief in him. I also pray that he would reveal in your heart that you do not have to belong to any one church or denomination to be saved.

Sincerely your friend in Christ Eric Farmer

It has been a long time since I have had discussions with evangelicals, and I was really hoping it would not turn vicious and demeaning, but you have in some ways taken that expectation away. Instead of honest questions and discussion it is a constant barrage of non Christian and non Bible believing replies. Never once has any judgement been made on you by me as going to hell or being deceived by the devil even though we disagree on many points, but my how quick you are when I raise questions, of placing us in hell with Satan, unbelievable. Like I have said before, I agree to disagree but will not respond as much as before, your voice of hate gets old.

Percy, I could be dead wrong, but I perceive you as possibly a plant or someone not really searching, just trying to get a response you want. But I hope you are sincere, because the advice I gave before is the only way for you to know, pray. I would love in some ways to keep going back and forth, but sometimes it tests my desire to always be Christlike. Till next time.

Sorry you feel that way I have always gone straight to the scriputure to back everything I say with what the Bible says. God Bless You and have a Great Weekend.

For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Written by, Joe Repya, Lt. Colonel, U S Army, 101st Airborne Division

Two week's ago, as I was starting my sixth month of duty in Iraq, I was forced to return to the USA for surgery for an injury I sustained prior to my deployment. With luck, I'll return to finish my tour .

I left Baghdad and a war that has every indication that we are winning, to return to a demoralized country much like the one I returned to in 1971 after my tour in Vietnam. Maybe it's because I'll turn 60 years old in just four months, but I'm tired:

I'm tired of spineless politicians, both Democrat and Republican who lack the courage, fortitude, and character to see these difficult tasks through. I'm tired of the hypocrisy of policians who want to rewrite history when the going gets tough. I'm tired of the disingenuous clamor from those that claim they "Support the Troops" by wanting them to "Cut and Run" before victory is achieved. I'm tired of a mainstream media that can only focus on car bombs and casualty reports because they are to afraid to leave the safety of their hotels to report on the courage and success our brave men and women are having on the battlefield.

I'm tired that so many Americans think you can rebuild a dictatorship into a democracy overnight.
I'm tired that so many ignore the bravery of the Iraqi people. who go to the voting booth and freely elect a Constitution and soon a permanent Parliament.

I'm tired of the so called "Elite Left" that prolongs this war by giving aid and comfort to our enemy, just as they did during the Vietnam War. I'm tired of antiwar protesters showing up at the funerals of our fallen soldiers. A family who's loved ones gave their life in a just and noble cause, only to be cruelly tormented on the funeral day by cowardly protesters, is beyond shameful. I'm tired that when we find mass graves, it is seldom reported by the press, but mistreat a prisoner and it is front page news.


I'm tired that my generation, the Baby Boomers, Vietnam generation, who have such a weak backbone that they can't stomach seeing a difficult task, through to victory. I'm tired that some are more concerned about the treatment of captives than they are of the slaughter and beheading of our citizens and allies.

Mostly, I'm tired that the people of this great nation didn't learn from history that there is no substitute for Victory.

Sincerely,
Joe Repya, Lt. Colonel, U. S. Army

No matter how much scipture evangelicals pour on Mormons, the battle can only be won by prayer. We have to understand as the Family of The Most High, "where there is zeal, strife, and divisions, are we not being carnal?" 1 Cor. 3

Much love to my Mormon brothers, Stay strong in the faith.

Boy, you folks really live in old testament times. Instead of living in fear, why not enjoy your brief stint on planet Earth???

Ecclesiastes 10:11-14
A serpent may bite when it is not charmed; The babbler is no different. The words of a wise man�s mouth are gracious, But the lips of a fool shall swallow him up;
The words of his mouth begin with foolishness, And the end of his talk is raving madness.
A fool also multiplies words. No man knows what is to be; Who can tell him what will be after him?

In response to gallileo:

Welcome to the post, it's great to have you here.

p.s. 1 Corinthians is NEW TESTAMENT. :)

Nathan,

Thanks - a mormon friend of mine directed me here - after reading this he was tempted to become a nihilist. Anyway, what is with this guy Eric? I'm actually wondering if he is human. Do they have scripture bots - like spam bots? If he is real, he must be posting from an asylum!!! No doubt, I'll be banned from posting fairly soon, so let me just say that this is a hysterical read. I dont know how many of you can see the bigger picture but it comes across as a really bad advertisement for religion, showing all the hatred, bigotry and fractionation that is currently tearing this country to pieces.

Since I am vegetarian and friend of the environment (yes, a stinking peace-lovin' liberal), here is a quote for Eric, the scripture bot, to add to his database:

(from Dostoyevsky:)

"Love animals: God has given them the rudiments of thought and joy untroubled. Do not trouble their joy, don't harrass them, don't deprive them of their happiness, don't work against God's intent. Man, do not pride yourself on superiority to animals; they are without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your apppearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after you - alas, it is true of almost every one of us!"

Matthew 12:34-37
Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.�

Hello Gallileo, is there anything I can help you with, are you searching for something!!!

Eric,

Yes, I was searching for something and you did help me find it - thanks. It is a hobby of mine to browse the internet in search of tormented, vitreolic evangelics.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron;

P.S. You might want to take the (Peace-lovin) part out of your ealier quote.

Good Morning Gallileo, I am sorry if I offended you I am only human too and my anger did get aroused when I felt like the only reason you came on the post was to attack me��I know you have probably herd this a million times but is does make a lot of since and that us Christians aren�t even close to being perfect but we are saved!!!
I am just a lowly child of Christ who searches the scriptures daily and seeks to do the will of my Heavenly Father. Please forgive me for some of my post I should have been giving you scriptures of love, hope and peace rather then condemnation.
I hope you find what you are really looking for, I know for myself with out Jesus in my life I was never satisfied with all my cars, boats, houses, businesses, relationships and continually looking for the next big party.
I have a new direction in life and it�s great I seek to serve others daily I can�t tell you the feeling I get fulfilling others needs rather that my own threw service at helping out at the homeless shelters, alcohol and chemical recovery programs or just helping out around the house by putting away some dishes so some else won�t be inconvenienced.
I prayed for you this morning that Jesus would heal you of what ever heart you may have had in your past and would set you free once and for all from any hatred, guilt or shame you might be carrying�..peace to you Gallileo and may God Truly Bless Your Life.
Sincerely Eric Farmer

The following points and questions aren't intended to be 'anti-Mormon' although many believers in the Book of Mormon's historicity take them that way. Rather, they are to help sort things out and help us come out 'true Mormons' who receive truth from all sources. As you browse through them don't forget the admonition of Mormon Historian and General Authority B.H. Roberts above. Likewise, you don't want to miss out on the sublinks which help explain the questions and concerns raised. Reviews of this page have been made both online and via email in which the reviewers basically ignored the referential links.
If you aren't already familiar with the term 'Occam's Razor', you may wish to brush up on its meaning and usefulness before proceeding. Perhaps it can help us all do as Carl Sagan suggests and winnow deep thoughts from deep nonsense.

Book of Mormon Culture

� Why does the Book of Mormon mention Silk (Alma 1:29)? LDS apologist John Welch cites several New World fabrics as possible matches for Linen and Silk (Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pg. 162). Agave fibers and fig bark for Linen? Ceiba fibers, pineapple fibers and rabbit hair for Silk? Welch concludes with the staggering claim that "Mesoamerica evidently exhibits almost an embarrassment of riches for the "silk" and "linen" of Alma 1:29. All but the most trivializing critics should be satisfied with the parallels." (pg. 164) My response to Welch is simply that Rabbit hair still doesn't equal silk in the minds of objective observers or scholars.

� What about Chariots (Alma 18:9)? There is no evidence of actual wheeled vehicle usage in the 2,000 BC to 400 AD time frame in Ancient America.

� Why does the Book of Mormon imply a seven day week (Mosiah 13:18) when it was not known to Ancient Americans? The Mesoamericans used a variety of calendars, none of which match the Old World calendar. The Maya seemed to be oversupplied in the calendar department. One calendar consisted of a 260-day cycle divided into 13 'months' of twenty days. (This calendar was used by most of the ancient Mesoamericans). Each day was presided over by it's own god. Another consists of a 365-day cycle, also divided into 'months' of twenty days, eighteen of them in fact. The five leftover days were called the 'resting, or sleep of the year'. Another consists of a 3276-day cycle divided into four quadrants of 819 days (the product of 7*9*13, all sacred numbers to the Maya). And then, of course, there was the so-called 'long count' calendar, which simply counted days from the creation of the world (August 11, 3114 BC, if anyone wants to know). (Linda Schele, 'A Forest of Kings', pg. 78).

� Why are Cimeters, an Old-World weapon of war, mentioned in Mosiah 9:16 and other verses when none have been found to exist in the New World? John Sorenson cites a Mesoamerican 'maccuahuitl' for a Cimiter (An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, pg. 262). The Maccuahuitl was a hardwood club with obsidian blades. A Cimiter is a heavy, two-handed steel blade. What's wrong with this picture?

� Why have some (like Elder Peterson and Elder Brewerton used the Quetzalcoatl legend to "prove" the Book of Mormon's Christ when the Quetzalcoatl (or feathered serpent) legend dates to 1,000 years before the Book of Mormon's Christ? Also, Quetzalcoatl was never depicted as white until after the coming of the Spaniards, and then only in writings done by the Spaniards themselves. (see Readers Digest, Mysteries of the Ancient Americas: The New World before Columbus, 1986, 38) for a picture of the "Great White God" described by Peterson. Orthodox LDS church member Brant Gardner has done the most research in the field and concludes that there is 'no connection' between Quetzalcoatl and the Book of Mormon's Christ.
� When the Nephites landed in the Americas there were already millions of inhabitants in the land with large cities and infrastructure. Why are these people not mentioned? The Book of Mormon seems to indicate that the continent was empty at the time. 2 Nephi 1:8 One wonders if 'knowledge' of the land had been kept from the natives who had already been there for thirty thousand years?

� Why does the Book of Mormon include a very literal account of such things as Noah's Ark (Ether 6:7), Adam & Eve, or the Garden of Eden (Alma 42:2)? If Noah's Ark, the Tower of Babel story of the languages forming or many of the other things mentioned in the Bible aren't literal (and they aren't by any stretch of the imagination)--neither are the portions of Book of Mormon history relying on these items as literal. Similarly, why did Joseph Smith state that Adam and the Garden of Eden were literally located in Missouri?

"Like Roberts, James Talmage believed that the 5,931-year-old Adamic race had been preceded on earth by pre-Adamic life. The usually cautious father boasted to his son that in discussions among the Twelve he had been "bold enough to point out" some conclusive evidence against (Joseph Fielding) Smith's position. He had personally inspected a pile of stones at Spring Hill, Missouri, declared by Joseph Smith to be part of "the altar on which Adam offered sacrifices," and had seen that it contained fossilized animals. "If those stones be part of the first altar," he reasoned, "Adam built it of stones containing corpses, and therefore death must have prevailed in the earth before Adam's time." (The original quote is from a letter written by James Talmage in 1931 to his son, Sterling Talmage, also a geologist. It is quoted in Ronald L. NumbersThe Creationists. The Evolution of Scientific Creationism (Berkeley: University of California Press), 1992. The section on Creationism in Mormonism (pp. 308-14) is excellent. This quote is from page 311).

� Why didn't Nephi compare and contrast the New World with Jerusalem? These were two vastly different places.

Book of Mormon Metallurgy

� Why does the Book of Mormon mention Bellows (1 Nephi 17:11), Brass (2 Nephi 5:15), Breast Plates & Copper (Mosiah 8:10), Gold and Silver currency (Alma 11), Silver (Jarom 1:8), and Steel Swords (Ether 7:9)? No evidence indicates that these items existed, in their Book of Mormon forms, during Book of Mormon times.
Tom Ferguson: "Metallurgy [as spoken of in the Book of Mormon] does not appear in the region until about the 9th century A.D." [The Book of Mormon ends in the 5th century A.D.]

� Why doesn't the art (which is abundant) of the supposed Book of Mormon cultures portray the existence of metallurgical products or metallurgical activity as described in the Book of Mormon?

Book of Mormon Animals

� Why does the Book of Mormon mention the following animals: Ass, Bull, Calf, Cattle, Cow, domestic Goat (the Nephites claimed to have found the domestic goat!), Horse (the horse plays a major role in the Nephite and Lamanite societies), Ox, domestic Sheep, Sow, Swine, & Elephants? (contrary to the incorrect speculations and erroneous information provided by LDS sources and a very dated non-LDS source on this site, non-LDS experts indicate that there is no evidence of elephants in the New World and the mammoth and mastodon of North America have been extinct for over ten thousand years--see Stan Larson's Quest for the Gold Plates pages 184-188 and Mammoth expert Larry D. Agenbroad's article in the Oct. 1997 issue of Natural History in which he states that mammoths became extinct 11,000 years ago.) None of these animals existed in America during Book of Mormon times. The Book of Mormon claims to have domesticated sheep, goats, horses, cattle, and pigs. There were no such domesticated animals at the time in America. According to an expert in the field, the only domesticated animals in pre-Columbian America were llamas, alpacas, guinea pigs, and turkeys. None of these are mentioned in the Book of Mormon. (See Americans Before Columbus, 26-27) Even LDS apologist John Sorenson admits that
"The terms cattle, horses, sheep and so on are mentioned at several points in the Nephite record. And it is dismaying to some who wish to be dismayed, I believe and a few others who (honestly) wish an answer could be provided why there are not cows like we mean cows, horses like we mean horses, sheep like we mean sheep. The fact is that all the ancient studies say those animals simply were not present in the New World. Period. They were not here."
(Note that FARMS now charges people to see the article this quote comes from. It could previously be accessed through a link on this page.)

� Why aren't animals such as Coatimundis, Deer, Jaguars, Tapir, Monkeys, Sloths, Turkeys, etc.. mentioned when they were animals that existed?

Book of Mormon Crops

� Why is plow agriculture such as Barley (Alma 11:7) and Wheat (Mosiah 9:9) included in the Book of Mormon when it didn't exist during that time period? "There's a whole system of production of wheat and barley . . . It's a specialized production of food. You have to know something to make flax [the source of linen], and especially in tropical climates. Grapes and olives . . . all these are cultures that are highly developed and amount to systems, and so the Book of Mormon is saying that these systems existed here." (BYU anthropology professor, Dr. Raymond T. Matheny, August 25, 1984 Sunstone conference in Salt Lake City). Welch claims barley existed in the Book of Mormon based on one find in Phoenix, Arizona! Arizona is hardly the setting of the Book of Mormon as both he and John Sorenson readily admit.

� Why aren't the foods known to ancient America such as chocolate, lima beans, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, manioc, etc. included in the Book of Mormon?

Book of Mormon Geography

� Why isn't the terrain of Central America described?

� Why is it that numerous LDS books and papers describe proposed Book of Mormon locations for cities and the "narrow neck of land"? No city has been identified as being Nephite, Lamanite, Jaredite, etc. For example, Zarahemla was occupied for hundreds of years, but we still don't have any real evidence of it ever existing. The Book of Mormon describes a time period from 2000 BC to 400 AD and millions of people. No city they occupied has yet to be found.

� Why didn't any of the place names from the Book of Mormon still exist when Columbus arrived?
� Where was the Hill Cumorah? Was it in New York or Central America? If it was in Central America, why hasn't it been found? If it was in New York, how did they move that quickly and where are all the remains?

� Why don't significant gaps exist in the archeological record of Mesoamerica if these "missing" people existed?

� Did the Book of Mormon take place outside of Mesoamerica? The History of the Church records an incident from June, 1834 in which Joseph Smith identified a skeleton found in an Indian burial mound in Illinois: ". . . the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph . . . who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains." (HOC 1948 ed., II: 79-80).

� Why don't archeologists theorize Hebrew or Egyptian linkages or influences in Mesoamerica?

Items (such as the Book of Mormon) that have this many unanswered questions are difficult to have faith in. If as Joseph Smith says in Alma 32:21, we should only have faith in things which are true, we can easily rule out having faith in those things in life for which there is no evidence for or for which there is evidence against.
"Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
-- Thomas Edison

For more on the subject of Book of Mormon historicity, see New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology, the FARMS rebuttal (previously linked from this page) is no longer available for free on the internet.
For a response to the information presented above, see (page no longer on the internet) by Malcolm Ross. It doesn't appear that Malcolm read anything on the site except portions of this page. He claims that your time would be better spent just reading FARMS publications rather than looking at the above questions. His final suggestion is to rely on the faulty methodology found in the Book of Mormon itself rather than tangible evidence.

I posted the above not to piss off any of our Mormon Brothers or Sisters I found it to be an interesting read and would like to get their own input on it!!!

Last thing before I get kicked off this site

First Vision

Why do the accounts differ with respect to who was in the vision? See The New Mormon History : Revisionist Essays on the Past for more on this.

Why doesn't Jesus show up (separate from God) until after the God doctrine had evolved into a plurality of Gods? (i.e., 1835 and thereafter)

Why don't the early "prophets" even know the story accurately? "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven...But he did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun...and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong" (B. Young - JOD Volume 2 p.171 1855).
"How did it (the organization) come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world...He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world." (Wilford Woodruff - JOD Volume 11 p.196 1855).
"How did the state of things called Mormonism originate? We read that an angel came down and revealed himself to Joseph Smith and manifested unto him in a vision the true position of the world in a religious point of view. He was surrounded with light and glory while the heavenly messenger communicated these things to him." (John Taylor - JOD Volume 10 p.127 1863).
"When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong." (George A. Smith - JOD Volume 12 p.334 1863).

Why doesn't any published source mention the "official" first vision account until 1842--22 years after the "official" event supposedly happened?

Why doesn't the 1st vision play an important role in Mormon history until the 1860s? No one seems to mention it before then even though it is now deemed by Mormons to be the most important event in almost 2,000 years.

Why isn't there evidence to support the revival described by Joseph Smith in early 1820--yet there is evidence to support revivals several years later? Joseph Smith's neighborhood experienced no revival in 1820 such as he described, in which great multitudes joined the Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian churches. According to early sources, including church conference reports, newspapers, church periodicals, presbytery records and published interviews, nothing occurred in 1820-21 that fits Joseph's description. There were no significant gains in church membership in the Palmyra-Manchester, New York area, during 1820-21 such as accompany great revivals. For example, in 1820, the Baptist Church in Palmyra only received 8 people through profession of faith and baptism, the Presbyterian church added 14 members, while the Methodist circuit lost 6 members, dropping from 677 in 1819 to 671 in 1820 and down to 622 in 1821 (see Geneva area Presbyterian Church Records, Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA; Records for the First Baptist Church in Palmyra, American Baptist Historical Society, Rochester, NY; Minutes of the [Methodist] annual Conference, Ontario Circuit, 1818-1821, pp. 312, 330, 346, 366).

Why does Lucy Smith (his mother) indicate that the revival occurred around 1824? Her son, Alvin died on November 19, 1823, and following that painful loss Lucy Smith reports that, "about this time there was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject and we among the rest, flocked to the meeting house to see if there was a word of comfort for us that might relieve our over-charged feelings" (First draft of Lucy Smith's History, p. 55, LDS Church Archives). Church records from that time period show outstanding increases in membership due to the reception of new converts. The Baptist Church received 94, the Presbyterian 99, while the Methodist work grew by 208. "You will recollect that I mentioned the time of a religious excitement, in Palmyra and vicinity to have been in the 15th year of our Brother J. Smith Jr's, age that was an error in the type- it should have been the 17th...This would bring the date down to the year 1823." (Oliver Cowdrey - Times & Seasons Vol. 2, p. 241 1840). For further details see, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1969, pp. 59-100.

Why does his first autobiography not even mention the "first vision"?

Why does Joseph Smith have Lehi make such a statement as 1 Nephi 8:2? Is he equating a dream to an actual, physical vision or visitation from God?

Why don't you just read it and pray like it asks you to and then you can the real answer, so you can quit relying on all the anti mormon literature that exists? and PS we pray for you constantly that the pure in heart and those seeking more truth will come to a knowledge of the full gospel of Jesus Christ. thanks for your prayers in return.

Good to hear from you Rod how are you doing. I never asked you what state you live in I am in Orange County California....

I am LDS and would like to answer Mr. Farmers Questions. However, there are so many that it may take awhile. Looks like a cut and Paste from a anti Mormon site.
John

Eric,
I wrote a response and when I posted it it said the owner of the blog is going to review it first. So, it may or may not get posted. Has anyone had this happen before? It was a clean and conise response, but it was long. Does that have an effect on posting?

No way I have time to answer all those questions. I started on the first one and I had already written a page of comments. If I were to answer all of them it would take pages and pages and I dont have time for that. It's too much. However I will say this. There is only one true Church on this earth, where is it? Where is Christs Church today? Is it the Baptists? The Protestants? The Catholics? The Jehovah Witnesses? The Non-denominational Christians? The Born again Christians? Or the hundreds of other Churches. They all have different doctrines, but Christ has one Doctrine. Is it your Church, Eric? Or the other Christian Church down the street from your Church who differs just slightly? Eric, do you recognize that there has been am Apostasy? Surly you must, because your Christian faith is in response to an apostasy or if I must say an outcome from an apostasy. Your Church exists because it stands in protest on the Catholic tradition and doctrines, thats why and how all these denominations exist today. Read up on your religious history.
At age 14 Joseph Smith says he went into a grove of trees and prayed and asked God what Church he should join because he was confused to as who was right and who was wrong. Joseph says he saw God and Jesus Christ, and that they said that all the Churches on earth had been corrupted and not to join any of them. Is it to hard to believe that man has corrupted religion? From this and many other experiences we today have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the and in 2007 a Church of over 11 million followers and an organization that spreads across the World. Eric, is it impossible that God and Jesus Christ would appear to someone? Are you questioning the power of God? Let it be known Eric, one of two things happened to Joseph Smith. Either God the father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph that spring morning in 1820, or it was the devil. No man could create the Book of Mormon or this great Church, it has derived from either God himself or the devil. Joseph Smith was an uneducated Farm boy. He was either an instrument in the hand of God, or was manipulated by the devil. Where is the true Church? It?s either the Catholics or the Mormons. All Christian sects, Churches, or organizations are break offs from the Catholic Church in one way or another, except the Mormons. So, is it the Catholics? Are we both in the wrong Church? or did an apostasy occur and there is need of a Restoration? If an apostasy did indeed occur than how would Christ Church be restored? Not through continued apostasy, but through a Restoration. Or maybe there is no true Church on the face of the earth and we are still waiting for a Restoration? So maybe, we are all wrong. What?s the answer? Does Peter not in fact speak on an apostasy? How about Paul? How about the Book of Revelations? Has not this apostasy from the truth already happened? If not, it is certainly the Catholics. If it has, then there is no true Church and we are waiting, or its the Mormons. If its not the Mormons, its the Catholics, if its not the Catholics its the Mormons, if its neither, its no one and we are still waiting for the true Church. The only way you will ever find out the truth about Mormons is if you read the Book of Mormon with real intent and having faith in Christ. If you do this and then ask God if the Book of Mormon is true with a sincere heart he will answer you by power and gift of the Holy Ghost.
On a closing note, I started counting how many posts you have had about Mormonism. I stopped at 40, but there were more. You sound like a man obsessed, with lots of cut and pastes from anti Mormon web sites. If you are going to stay on this course, please use your own material, the other stuff is full of lies, things taken out of context and its UN original.
I will leave you with what I know in my heart to be true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Gods Church here on earth. God the father and His son Jesus Christ did in fact appear to the 14 year old Joseph Smith and through him restored Their Church. I know that Christ lives and he is my Savior. I know that Christ died for my sins and for the sins of the world. I know that without Him I am nothing.
John

John,

Seems that what you know in your heart to be true is different to what Eric's heart knows. So, whose heart can be trusted to "know" the correct info? Eric's, your's, mine, Saddam Hussein's, my dog's????

Can't you see the hypocrisy in all of this?

John,

Regarding your test: Of course, if I were to read Alice in Wonderland with real intent to believe it, I wouldn't be at all surpised to receive a visit from the Mad Hatter telling me that it is all true.

However, as a rational individual, if I really wish to test the sincerity of a subjective notion, I have to approach the problem with an open mind...

To Gallileo,
I would not disagree with anything you said. Having an open mind is extremely important. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? It's hard to tell. Why do you think I stated the LDS Church is either true or false, one or the other. You have missed used the meaning of the word hypocrisy. Are you sure you meant hypocrisy? You raise some good questions, Semantics, that�s what you are arguing. You have not addressed any of the doctrinal questions. If I had just stated doctrine or religious history and not my personal feelings I am sure you would have not replied. Save the issue of Semantics for a debate class or a deductive reasoning class. If that were the case you would have an argument, but it�s not and therefore does not apply. Gallileo, you certainly have not answered any of my questions. Where is the true Church? Is there one? Are they all true or none of them? By all academic means and by historic information it's the Catholic Church, unless you believe an apostasy happened. So, are you going to argue the structure of my statement or address what is at hand? Would you like me to take out my personal feelings and re �write my statement? Would that make it more acceptable? Or do you not have the doctrinal knowledge to talk religion? Why avoid the real issue?
John

To Gallileo,
I would not disagree with anything you said. Having an open mind is extremely important. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? It's hard to tell. Why do you think I stated the LDS Church is either true or false, one or the other. You have missed used the meaning of the word hypocrisy. Are you sure you meant hypocrisy? You raise some good questions, Semantics, that�s what you are arguing. You have not addressed any of the doctrinal questions. If I had just stated doctrine or religious history and not my personal feelings I am sure you would have not replied. Save the issue of Semantics for a debate class or a deductive reasoning class. If that were the case you would have an argument, but it�s not and therefore does not apply. Gallileo, you certainly have not answered any of my questions. Where is the true Church? Is there one? Are they all true or none of them? By all academic means and by historic information it's the Catholic Church, unless you believe an apostasy happened. So, are you going to argue the structure of my statement or address what is at hand? Would you like me to take out my personal feelings and re �write my statement? Would that make it more acceptable? Or do you not have the doctrinal knowledge to talk religion?
John

Gallileo, here is a revised version for you.
If there is only one true Church on this earth, where is it? Where is Christs Church today? Is it the Baptists? The Protestants? The Catholics? The Jehovah Witnesses? The Non-denominational Christians? The Born again Christians? Or the hundreds of other Churches or sects. They all have different doctrines, but Christ has one Doctrine. Is it your Church, Eric? Or the other Christian Church down the street from your Church who differs just slightly? Eric, do you recognize that there has been an Apostasy? Surly you must, because your Christian faith is in response or if I must say an outcome from an apostasy. Your Church exists because it stands in protest on the Catholic tradition and doctrines, thats why and how all these denominations exist today. Read up on your religious history.
At age 14 Joseph Smith says he went into a grove of trees and prayed and asked God what Church he should join because he was confused to as who was right and who was wrong. Joseph says he saw God and Jesus Christ, and that they said that all the Churches on earth had been corrupted and not to join any of them. Is it to hard to believe that man has corrupted religion? From this and many other experiences we today have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and in 2007 a Church of over 11 million followers and an organization that spreads across the World. Eric, is it impossible that God and Jesus Christ would appear to someone? Are you questioning the power of God? Let it be known Eric, one of two things happened to Joseph Smith. Either God the father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph that spring morning in 1820, or it was the devil. No man could create the Book of Mormon or this great Church, it has derived from either God himself or the devil. Joseph Smith was an uneducated Farm boy. He was either an instrument in the hand of God, or was manipulated by the devil. Where is the true Church? Its either the Catholics or the Mormons. All Christian sects, Churches, or organizations are break offs from the Catholic Church in one way or another, except the Mormons. So, is it the Catholics? Are we both in the wrong Church? or did an apostasy occur and there is need of a Restoration? If an apostasy did indeed occur than how would Christs Church be restored? Not through continued apostasy, but through a Restoration. Or maybe there is no true Church on the face of the earth and we are still waiting for a Restoration? So maybe, we are all wrong. Whats the answer? Does Peter not in fact speak on an apostasy? How about Paul? How about the Book of Revelations? Has not this apostasy from the truth already happened? If not, it is certainly the Catholics. If it has, then there is no true Church and we are waiting, or its the Mormons. If its not the Mormons, its the Catholics, if its not the Catholics its the Mormons, if its neither, its no one and we are still waiting for the true Church.

Hi John, I am glad you responded it means the Spirit is at work you would not have taken the time to bother responding if you thought I was completely full of nonsense!!!
I can tell you I am a very busy person and my selfish nature would rather be doing other things then taking the time to post on this site I can assure you.
I have always been one to test everything I see and hear the material I posted is too get one thinking if even 90% of it was wrong what about the other 10% it would make me think before going any further with something I new was only 90% accurate would you like to have a 90/10 chance of living or a 100% chance of living? or placing all your hopes and dreams in something that may have been like you said the biggest trap ever set by the devil�!!!!!
Personally I am so tired of hearing who is the true church of Christ and that they have a new Revelation��I can tell you the only true church of Christ is the one that is in your heart your personal belief in Jesus Christ (No Church is Going to Stand in Your Place When the Day of Judgment Comes) I can assure you of that!!!
I would all so say that if your church believes in a saved by works doctrine they are pulling Jesus off the Cross and placing themselves there and I certainly would not want to be part of that!!!! If you are even more serious about checking the stuff I posted earlier to the links and other material check out LDS-Mormon.com

P.S. Make sure when you post you proof everything in word then cut and paste don�t hit the preview button on the post it seems to kick everything out!!! Have a Great Day

Hello Eric,

There have been alot of conversations you have had with LDS people on this site and probaby many others in your life. You seem to never acknowledge the fact that we claim and know we are nothing without a Savior and